Doubles

[870classic]

Labs leg seems to be doing better so I have been on an ongoing struggle with him with double retrieves. He loves the duck decoys but the straight old school dummies he walks it off or has to be told several times to fetch them. Pretty much he has done really well up to this point, and refuses to go for a second bird on command any help?

[SouthBryanLabs]

Have you considered a strong force fetch program that either you can do yourself or a local pro can help you with? You will be amazed at the difference after a solid foundation is in place.

[Riggs]

X2 on FF

[870classic]

That's the thing, I use Chris Atkins Dog Dog Basics and I have already put a serious force fetch on him and he'll do it all just like the video. I feel like I could just use all bird decoys but then he may get the idea that he dosn't have to pick up everything you know?

[ze6464]

Is he e collar condition on his ff.

[ducks031205]

How old is the pup? I can't remember exactly what Akin said in his DVD on FF, but did you use several different objects and force him to them? Sometimes you have to take a couple of steps back in training.

[870classic]

yeah, I have him ecollered on fff, and I used all sorts of stuff. He just refuses to concentrate and stay focused on the second mark.

[ducks031205]

will he bring bumpers back when it is just fun bumpers?

[ze6464]

U could try leaving a bird in his mouth during the marks. Mike Lardy uses that step in his training. I am not a pro I just do my homework and i watch lots of pros.

[SouthBryanLabs]

I know this might seem like a re-hash of my first post but I would strongly suggest that you revisit a portion of the training with regard to force fetch, walking fetch, force to pile, etc. It sounds like the dog is avoiding the command that you are giving him and you don't have a tool in your training regimen to get through this. And if that is not what you think is going on try doing some marks with a training buddy who has a dog that is steady and work on steady with your dog. Sometimes it helps with a young dog to increase the desire by adding a second dog into the mix. Finally, hook up with a good training group or pro in your area that can work with you and give you some advice.

[HuntinCosta]

Have you run wagon wheel with him yet?

[FEETDOWN]

Sometimes it helps with a young dog to increase the desire by adding a second dog into the mix.

Peer pressure sometimes works wonders. Worked for me when I was introducing ducks to my pup

[ze6464]

How far r u setting up ur marks. It is just me but I would step back to yard work again and then do small marks in the field..

[ducks031205]

I just re-read your original post and are you wanting advice on how to get your pup to pick up bumpers or on how to get him to run doubles? By him not wanting to pick up bumpers, even when told to fetch, shows a hole in his FF training and I would correct this first. Trust me, any "small" problems in the pup's basics can cause BIG headaches down the road....I am speaking from pure experience here!

[870classic]

Sorry this is going to be a bunch of responses in one. I am having problems with doubles not fetch, if I tell him to fetch he'll do it. The issue is if I throw two birds, he will sprint and get the first bring it back and then it's like he's just waiting for me to throw it again and has no care that there is another bird out there. Also what is the Wagon Wheel?

[ze6464]

how is he on blind work......

[ducks031205]

My suggestion, take it for what it is worth, use white bumpers in short grass....throw the first one very short, turn 180 degrees and throw the next. Release him and when he returns turn him around to the short bumper and he should be able to see it laying there and go for it when you release him. If this is what you have tried then we will have to go back to the drawing board

[HRC Dogs]

Sorry this is going to be a bunch of responses in one. I am having problems with doubles not fetch, if I tell him to fetch he'll do it. The issue is if I throw two birds, he will sprint and get the first bring it back and then it's like he's just waiting for me to throw it again and has no care that there is another bird out there. Also what is the Wagon Wheel?

Okay.. You’ve received some sound advice from many on here. Here's my 2 cents about preparing a dog for double marks...and I'm sure I will repeat what others have already stated... but I will not cover FF. Just guessing but your dog has not demonstrated "memory" and may not posses adequate marking skills for singles prior to introducing doubles. So you need to teach "memory" and demonstrate strong single marking skills.

1) Prerequisite - FF required for doubles.

Make sure your dog is marking singles well....really well!!
2) Start with a (1) bird boy in the field ... yes only 1 ....your dog has not demonstrated memory.... Have the bird boy blow his duck call only after the dog is looking at the bird boy throw the duck/bumper. Send the dog after it has demonstrated steady. Repeat... repeat... repeat... repeat... repeat for land & water for next several weeks... in various cover and distances. Also remove the bird boy and use a winger.... repeat ... repeat ... repeat....

Teaching your dog memory....
3) Now introduce "delayed sends" on Singles. Start with a bird boy in the field... have him blow the duck call and throw the duck/bumper. Do not send the dog for 15 seconds.....wait.. 30 seconds.. so on and so on.. until you delay for 3-5 minutes. Try not to disturb the dog.. hopefully he will stay focused on the mark and will not move his head. Repeat .... repeat.. repeat...

Now your dog is ready to learn doubles....
4) Start with (2) bird boys in the field (on land).... Have the 1st bird boy throw a duck/bumper in light cover at 30 yards after he has made the dog look at him by blowing a duck call. Send the dog several seconds after the dog has demonstrated he is steady. After the dog returns with the duck/bumper in his mouth make him hold it and swing 180 degrees. Have the 2nd bird boy blow his duck call and throw a duck/bumper. Do not let the dog drop the duck/bumper...make the dog show steady for several seconds.. hopefully the dog is focusing on the mark. Take the duck/bumper out of his mouth and send the dog. Repeat ... Repeat ... Repeat.. on land & water for both directions.

5) Start with (2) bird boys in the field on land.... Have the 1st bird boy throw a duck/bumper after he has blown the duck call. After a count of 4 have the 2nd bird boy blow his duck call until the dog swings 180 degrees.... of course you are telling the dog to "mark" as you move your feet to face the 2nd bird boy. Of course this will be easy, because you have done all of the proper obedience yard work for healing and the dog will move with you at all times as you move and stay in proper position. After the dog is finally focused on the 2nd bird boy, he can then throw the duck/bumper. After the dog has demonstrated steady... send the dog. After the dog returns to heal, line the dog up for the 1st mark thrown and after the dog has indicated he is looking in the correct direction. Then remove the duck/bumper from his mouth and send the dog. Many handlers remove the duck prior lining the dog up... but I believe it helps to reinforce the same training technique as stated in step #4. Repeat.... Repeat.. Repeat. on both land & water for both directions and various degrees of mark separation

6) Same as step #5 but now you must introduce a gun and teach the dog to mark off the barrel of the gun and swing with the gun..... To train a dog to properly mark of the barrel requires various techniques... that can be covered at another time. You’re at least 6-12 weeks from needing this training information.

7) There are many other steps for multiple marks from this point over the next several years to teach the dog.

All of the above is for a hunting dog/hunt test preparation... if you notice.. I did not cover Field trial work. Of course what do I know? I’m just an amateur dog trainer. Keep us posted on your dog’s progress.

[tke0398]

Buy Mike Lardy's Total Retriever Marking DVD (and his other DVD's and manuals). Choose ONE program and stick to it. Trying to pick and choose this and that from different programs will be confusing for you and the dog.

[HRC Dogs]

Buy Mike Lardy's Total Retriever Marking DVD (and his other DVD's and manuals). Choose ONE program and stick to it. Trying to pick and choose this and that from different programs will be confusing for you and the dog.

Hey 870Classic, tke0398 just brought to light a very important point. What is your training objective for the dog?

A) Hunting Dog (Gun Dog)
B) Hunt Test Dog
C) Hunting/Hunt Test Dog
D) Field Trial dog
E) All of the above

That's an important question to answer in selecting a "program".

Just curious tke0398.....if I was to train a hunting/hunt test dog. Why would I choose Mike Lardy's Total Retriever Marking DVD? Unless there is a newer version than the one I have, I don't recall Lardy covering the following.

1) Marking off the barrel of the gun
2) "Hidden" wingers for multiple marks...(only recall retired gunners in the field)
3) Having "No" attention getting devices in the field (only recall guns going off at 100+ yds prior to marks being thrown)
4) Healing the dog next to you as you're seated (like in a boat or a dove stool)
5) Multiple Marks that have separation greater than 100 degrees
6) Duck calls & guns firing at the line.

Or are the above topics covered in his other DVDs? They are all important aspects for training a hunting dog for marking doubles. I'm not sure any of the above is a requirement for a field trial dog...

I truly like Lardy's DVDs. He is obviously well respected and has demonstrated his training techniques through the dogs he trains & competes. His DVDs have a tremendous amount of information that applies to all aspects of retriever training but I would not say it was a complete program for a hunting dog. It definitely caters to the field trial retriever trainers/game more than the hunt test/hunting dog training needs.

But again, I’m just an amateur dog trainer. Just keep in mind 99% of the information that has been provided in this thread by all that have posted is found in written or video form for multiple marks (doubles). It's also fair to say, this thread does not cover all aspects of training a retriever for multiple marks. The best that we do through a thread is to provide ideas for 870classic to think about to help solve the problem that was presented.