The guvment is cooking turkey nest again

[Calibogue]

I understand the benefits of growing season fires and understand the logic behind them has to do with managing for non-game species and rare plants.....
BUT, sacrifices are made for these species with growing season fire that we don't like!

THERE IS A BETTER MORE HARMONIOUS BALANCE TO BE HAD!

[Jscrapmetal]

I understand that part. What are you talking about spraying and when? I have some pines that need some help, but we cant burn.

[Strick9]

I really hope you guys have read my USFS recap from the meeting.

If you haven't your in the dark and if you love Turkeys and still haven't read it your really in the dark.. The Bobwhite Quail is the perfect example of what is to come for Turkeys..

These aerial ignitions are fully set in full perimeter around the entire block of upto 3k acres. The full acreage is usually burnt in less than fours hours.

Number one reason given.. Hazardous fuel reductions.. Wildlife management fell to #5 on priority list.

Note* CWS is currently working on a fuel reduction versus fuels created as many of these burns are killing Loblolly pine which actually adds to fuel loads not decreases the fuel load.

[Strick9]

The USFS gets approximately $28 dollars per acre burned in grant monies in the Francis Marion and Sumter District. Its close to the same elsewhere.. The Chopper is 1500 per day whether it flies or not.. Then there is airtime which I haven't been able to get anyone to share.

Aerial ignition and the methods currently used are about one thing only and that is money.. The Required NEPA burn plans are falling further and further from their objectives to the point now where the objectives are being bent.

Weather conditions and Go no Go calls have also been overlooked for goals and target numbers for acreage burnt many times already this year. There are many things simmering in the pot right now.. I could really use an involved contact in the Piedmont area to help me out..

Here is the latest kick in the nuts for the EWT.. A USFS doctorate is now working on a research paper that , from what I glean, is fully geared towards supporting large aerial growing season burns as a good thing as applied to large vast spanning mature hardwoods stands such as found in the Appalachian mountains and the Oconee Pickens Sumter NF district.. Were talking burning 30,000 acres of mature hardwoods in a 50,000 acre forest.

[LabLuvR]

I didn't see this anywhere, but I believe safety of personnel is another reason the chopper is used. Regardless these burns need to be thought out a lot better and all wildlife scenarios evaluated.

[Strick9]

Your snowed if you think there is any truth to the suggestion of staff safety issues, the aerial full perimeter set ignition is far more dangerous than any backing fire with a flank line set.

[LabLuvR]

How is that?

[Strick9]

They still have to man the lines and patrol. However now instead of following fuel moisture content level guidelines and burn conditions they are igniting entire blocks at once via helicopter (to meet acreage targets). Think small controlled burns and blocks versus full blown perimeter conflagrations of 1500 -3000 acres. The aerial ignitions are much larger and jumping lines which creates situations in which the staff must hop in and attempt to set back fires to stop fire spread.

[LabLuvR]

Manning the line and patrolling don't pose the same risk as I see it. Keep in mind I worked in the business 30 years and spent some time on the Florida wildlfires were we were almost killed due to equipment failure. I don't feel like debating this but my opinion is you're wrong.

[Strick9]

Your speaking danger and wildfires, I have worked a few as well. No need for debate until you see a full blown 3000 aerial ignition on low fuel moisture high wind day conditions like we had before last weeks rains basically a true forest fire if you observe it from close proximity. Fire Techs were nervous as hell. I have never felt endangered doing prescribed drip torch burns. A true forest fire is a different beast entirely obviously. No harm in disagreeing.

[LabLuvR]

Brother, 3000 acres ain't shit! Try 10's of thousands of acres with strike teams from all over the nation and then some. Trust me on this one, I know from I speak. And...depending on conditions a 100 acre fire can be downright dangerous as well. Patrolling a line if we are using the same definition, is about the pretty safe. All a man has to do is jump in the black and he's pretty dang safe.

[dirtnap]

They been doing the aerial burns for years on Francis Marion. The problem here in the last 10 years or so is that they do a pile of burning after April 1. They used to be pretty well done by March 15 in the early 2000's. I am not in "the sky is falling" club for turkeys just yet. The numbers are down for sure, but it sure hasn't been hard to go get on one. And I am not a certified biologist by any stretch, but the burning they are doing now, is burning up nests. If they want to do growing season burns do them in August.

[Strick9]

We are on the same page. I didn't work the Yellow Stone fires but worked alongside several that partook of that beast back in the day. However we are speaking as to prescribed burns not wildfires, as were you originally. The point is aerial delivery still requires men on the ground and the technique they are using (full perimeter sets to create a column of heat centered up regardless of burn conditions) is equally or more dangerous than setting a backing fire on a small block using a backing fire with a flank up the centers. That point along with the fact that small burns with well dug lines are certainly more easily tended (when conditions are within appropriate guidelines) are safer for staff. Obviously small cool sets are more conducive to positive wildlife benefits than full block ignition on larger blocks which join black to black or in most recent cases white or complete fermentation loss.

Whats more frustrating to me is the continued practice of citing burn/turkey research gleaned from small block man applied drip burns to promote large scale aerial delivery especially as to nesting success.

[Quackhead22]

Whats more frustrating to me is the continued practice of citing burn/turkey research gleaned from small block man applied drip burns to promote large scale aerial delivery especially as to nesting success.

This is what frustrates me and what I also think causes mass confusion about the subject.


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[Tuffy]

This is what frustrates me and what I also think causes mass confusion about the subject.


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That.... and the confusing references to "nesting" vs. "brooding" habitat. I think there is real reluctance to force the issue in research papers and conclude any condemnation of any burning practices at all. Some of it reads like written with "forked tongue". Recently, we are starting to see hints of recognizing some types of burns as unhelpful....PERIOD, though. Descriptions of beneficial nesting habitat as requiring ground cover and reduced visibility are getting there slowly. The next "battle" is going to be about the length-of-rotation and the proportion of Nesting/Brood habitat required, but it's always going to be slow-going in the face of timber importance and what is perceived as the gospel in that industry.

It's interesting that the timber companies are shedding land and it's the state and federal agencies that are defending those practices. Money talks.