baiting

[Nab]

JABIII - I hope you're talking about another planting DT did than the one I raised 2/3'sof the money for and he picked a place close to his ducks ponds to do it - didn't see another planting since people found that out.
Talked about turning the swamp into a WMA - and it's not a dead issue - but unless it was going to be done exactly like a couple wanted then all they did was bad mouth it.
DUCKMAN - you're not even worth reading anymore.
By the way, I do believe JABIII gave me "permission" to raise hell at/with him a while back.
All of this shit is the main reason nothing will ever get done for the ducks - and not just in SC.

[JABIII]

Nab, your legacy will be that you stood in the way of all meaningful changes for YEARS while we tried to implement change on public water to get them in line with what we were already doing on private water while there were still ducks imprinted on public areas. Now that the migratory ducks have largely forgotten about areas like Sparkleberry and Lowfalls you want to jump on the bandwagon and start making changes.

We told you so and it is too little too late. Forgive me if we aren't enthusiastic about hearing your ideas to "help" now when you stood in the way when it would have really mattered.

You and others were always too worried about what was going on "over the dike" and too naive to see that we were all keeping our ducks through the decline because we relieved the pressure VOLUNTARILY.

When we asked you to do the same you squealed like a pig that we were "out to get the public hunter". Well, old boy, those chickens have come home to roost.

Private properties that regulated pressure have more big ducks this year than we have had in many years. We had gadwall,mallards, and widgeon sitting in ditchwater before we pumped a drop of water this year. There is a reason for that but after all these years I don't expect you to get it.

You say that attitudes are the "main rason for nothing getting done for the ducks" well look in the fucking mirror buddy. YOU are that reason and that attitude. We kept ours. We did WHATEVER we had to do to keep them including not shooting them. You wouldn't give up 2 days a week when asked. We showed you what needed to be done. We laid it out for you. Year after year. You bitched and did NOTHING.

At any rate, don't waste MY time with your half baked, way too late theories. We will just continue to do what we do and remind you when you come in with a tamie and a merganzer that WE TOLD YOU SO...

ps. I rotated off the board of the FF so I speak only for the many of us who TOLD YOU SO....

[tradorion]

The only things i know for sure are this---

1- NO PLAN will EVER meet with EVERYBODY's TOTAL approval.

2- I'd rather have good duck hunting for less overall days than a lot of potential hunting days each season knowing that most of them will be poor.

Hunting is not totally about killing- but in the end you do hunt to kill. Otherwise you'd walk in the woods or ride on the water with only a camera.

DUCKS DO NOT LIKE PRESSURE and PUBLIC WATER HUNTERS APPLY WAAAAAYYYYYYYY TOO MUCH PRESSURE... Prime Example- running a boat through Big Carr Creek this morning where they closed hunting to Wed/Sat AM this year... there were ducks sitting in various spots that normally would NOT have been there due to public hunting pressure.

The layman ducker in me (oooops!! sorry DuckyMan if this is another of my "Anti-DNR's Position Personal Opinions Stated Publicly" ) wishes my department would (Could??)let the season run as long as it does but EVERYONE (private AND public- this is one of those sacrifice things EVERYONE can do for the ducks) only hunt Wednesdays and Sat's thru noon.... there would still be fishing pressure in some places and some of the RubberHead "Run Them Up" scouting techniques-

HOWEVER most RubberHeads only get on the water because they can MAYBE kill something so there would be much less overall pressure and i think you'd see better harvests the days you could hunt.

Yes- people would lose some hunting time (including me- i get alot of my hunting during the week)... but i am betting the quality would go up.

Now- who's against this idea- most all folks. Public water hunters want to be greedy for every day possible and Private land folks say "we manage our land we should be allowed to manage our hunt dates".

Remember how everyone keeps saying EVERYONE needs to put something into the sacrificial pot???? I will believe it when i see it- in this case the Private hunters don't need to give anything up b/c they have what they want/need.

The Public hunter is coming to the table with nothing left to lose EXCEPT time on the water. Thus many people think the Private land argument to "leave us alone but manage the public water" looks like a negative-selfish thing.

In reality it is not b/c they do indeed limit themselves however it does show little willingness to do something to meet in the middle to get the public water hunters to sign onto the plan. You have to give to get sometimes... we'll see if anyone ever decides to actually apply this concept.

Just my $00.02- worth no more or less than the next guys...

T

[JABIII]

Good points Trad and I mainly agree BUT we private waterfowl managers HAVE BEEN WAITING IN THE MIDDLE FOR 15 YEARS! We are still waiting for the public to GET IN THE GAME. We are, have been, and will continue to do what is best for the ducks. When the public gets there tell them to call me about meeting in the middle of something...

[slick]

JABIII,
What I have done, after sitting here and reading this thread is to raise my voice and make a statement that yours is not the only point of view and that there are other people in different situtions that don't see things exactly like you do. What you need to understand about this is that no matter how much you say and do it still serves to benefit a few individuals and those of us who aren't as privledged as yourself cannot see things your way. I don't take exception to what you say you've done, if fact I will congratulate you on your success and hope that it continues. What I fail to see is how it helps any of us who hunt public water fix the increasing number of problems that seem to be affecting us. I thought this forum was open to different opinions and I'm expressing mine. If you don't hunt much public land or water I don't think you can fully understand where I'm coming from and I guess it stands to reason then that I can't really see your point either. Can we agree to disagree?

[JABIII]

We can agree that hunting public land in SC is not something that I care to do much of these days. When we had ducks that wasn't the case. if you want to attack those responsible for allowing public waters to get to this pathetic state, I suggest you look to those who blocked every measure we tried to implement even as we implemented them on our own lands voluntarily...

[slick]

Ducktape,
What I'm asking for is more bang for my tax dollar in the way this state handles public resources, not just for waterfowl but all types of wildlife, as it is now it borders on pitiful and the frontline personel can only give us excuses, not solutions. If the sport of hunting is being reserved only for the rich and landed gentry then we HAVE been betrayed and you are becoming part of that betrayal. Please try to understand what I'm saying from a little mans point of view. We are helpless if the people we elect to serve us ignore us for more lucrative things. I truly hope you make a difference, but I hope you make one that serves those least likely to help themselves.

[tradorion]

I disagree with your agreement JAB-- in a previous round of this fight you stated that since you were already limiting yourself with your current level/style of management you did not like the idea of being further limited to hunting the same days as the public hunters...

thus meeting in the middle isn't where you are at. you are where you want to be saying "feel free to come join me"

T

[slick]

JABIII,
Thats my point here, public land hunting should be a whole lot better than private. If for no other reason than there is so much more money available to improve it. Just think what you could do with just a fraction of the budget they have in this state alone. We are being taxed more and getting a lot less than we used to. I don't have an alternative except to stop hunting altogether but I can try to enlighten people to my situation. I hope you do understand that I'm not attacking you just holding you situation up for comparison to mine in hopes it will make people think.

[tradorion]

Interesting logic on all that public money and what it IS used for VS. what it COULD BE used for Slick. People will always rate higher for use of public funds than will land or animals.

JAB- for the record- i am not saying i disagree with the Private Hunters unwillingness to meet in the middle- you guys have worked hard and sacrificed and spent money to get what you have if it was me i'd be damned if i'd want folks taking my freedom of management away... what i am saying is that until the plan is created where both sides see the other giving something to the mix then it will never receive support from both sides.

T

[JABIII]

That is the rub Trad. We gave up 48 of the available 50 days last year and hunted twice. If the public can't see that we have given up something already ie: reduced pressure, then there is no hope for them which is pretty much where I am at with them.

I went to my FIRST series of "Improve the duck situation in SC meeting" put on by the DNR 19 years ago. Nothing has changed to reduce pressure on the majority of public water in all that time because the public hunter screamed then and they will scream now.

Tough titty I reckon. Exactly what we predicted would happen DID HAPPEN if they didn't reduce their pressure as well. As always they are too worried about what is "over the dike".

The sad part is that I have to say "WE" "THEY" now because I enjoyed hunting Parr, the Congaree,Wateree, and Santee swamps for over 30 years. The first half of them were as good as they got, too. What a shame the public hunter turned out to be his own worst enemy.

Maybe the younger crowd can take over and kick the old greedy crowd out of the decision process once the ducks are gone totally and they can take the playbook that we wrote and begged them to implement and start from scratch. The saddest part of all is that the imprinted migratory ducks MIGHT have been saved. We will never know now, will we...

Slick, your opinion is not only welcome it is IMPERATIVE. Keep asking quesions and maybe you will get to the root of the problem. So far, very damn few on your side ever have... Until a group willing to ignore the idiots that led us to this sorry position comes along, there will be no chance for real change...

They are bleating about doing the very things we BEGGED them to do for the last 15 years. It is WAY too late for that. We are at start over time now... The time for saving has come and gone....

[slick]

All,
Most of the folks I ran into on public land this year are really in the dark about what they expect to get for their hard earned money. That's where JABII and others who can show how it could be can help. At the bottom of it all are people like me who work, raise families and pay taxes. I think we have a lot more coming to us than what we are getting, I just don't know where or how to start asking for it.

[tradorion]

And with such sacrifice already in the mix what would be the great difficulty in putting those 2 days that you hunt on the same days as everybody else is hunting?

T

[JABIII]

Because as a micro manager I know which few days are the best to hunt from the standpoint of which days will keep these birds from LEAVING. And who is to say that THEY WON'T BE? Weather dictates that alone. Keeping those imprinted birds fat, happy, and in this state are going to be my number one priority whether or not it means I get to hunt them or not.

If you asked me the question would I support a closed duck season in the state of South Carolina for a period of years? My answer would be YES. That should show you where our allegiance lies but it won't. It still "won't be fair" that we get to pick our few days so the public will continue to hunt EVERY DAY out of spite and nothing will change...

[tradorion]

I don't see it as a "won't be fair" issue in the small world of WE vs. THEY that you are viewing this from... I look at it statewide private vs. public and see this:

The rest of the private land owners in the state do not follow "The JAB/Two Rivers Model for Duck Management".

Thus your plan will allow for Private Land Owners within the frame of the season to hunt as much or as little as they want while totally limiting the Public Water Hunter to two days a week- THAT is what i find to be less than "middle of the road".

The biggest problem with the Wed/Sat Plan would mean that folks would line up and camp on the river alongside your place each Wed/Sat praying that you guys shoot [img]graemlins/lol.gif[/img]

Remember this- you and NABster are at two opposite ends of the spectrum and both just as hard headed as a rusty old engine block- the rest of the SC Waterfowl World falls somewhere in the middle.

T

[JABIII]

Here is a management type question backatcha.

If you had the final say so over public waters in SC for a period of 3-5 years. Would you shut down the season, and still allow the private properties to hunt?

[tradorion]

Personally? No- I figure if its good enough to do for part its good enough to do for all.

If your style management works well for your ducks it is a good example for the rest of the state.

I also have a tainted view of the concept from a Law Enforcement stand point as well as biological... Allowing one group to hunt while not allowing another wouldn't stand up under a court challenge as we have well seen so many things in DNR get dropped as the courts ruled against us.

So let ALLLLLLL of us go duckless for 3-5 years and then implement limited hunting on the same schedule for everyone. Surely your two days per year could be fit into that pattern.

T

[tradorion]

See ya'll after dark-- time to go work on some of that over-hunted public water...

Its been interesting watching the buzzards circle this season. People have finally figured out that hanging onto the edges of the plantations and the SCR in the N/S Santees is a flawed technique so they have jammed up the Pee Dee, Black and Waccamaw areas.

From Hwy 17 east to the mouth of North AND South Santee Bay and along the ICW yesterday i checked 5 boats, heard less than 15 shots and saw NO dead ducks.

But MAN OH MAN OH MAN are the plantations holding birds ESPECIALLY where they have worked ot get the food in place.


T

[JABIII]

Originally posted by tradorion:


The rest of the private land owners in the state do not follow "The JAB/Two Rivers Model for Duck Management".

T

The ones that still have imprinted migratory big ducks mainly DO and the rest who gives a shit about. Figuring in the tamie shooter plantation owners is irresponsible waterfowl management and a damn poor way to run a state waterfowl management plan. They should never factor into it at all. Let them shoot their pets 360 days a year for all I care. Make them have preserve status, but that is another topic.

"Thus your plan will allow for Private Land Owners within the frame of the season to hunt as much or as little as they want while totally limiting the Public Water Hunter to two days a week- THAT is what i find to be less than "middle of the road". "

Be clear on this point. I offer no plan. The time for plans is past. You can't save what is gone. Let someone else worry about the rebuild. We tried. They cried. We have ducks. They don't.

A harsh reality but a reality none the less. I will be glad to opine on whatever anyone wants to try but the day of my "planning" is past.

20 years of beating your head against a brick wall should be enough to get anyone a purple heart and a "thanks for trying" instead you will hear nothing but piss bitch and moan from the very idiots who blocked it all...

Nobody would like to see 250,000 mallards back in the Sangaree basin more than me I assure you that.

[JABIII]

Originally posted by tradorion:
Personally? No- I figure if its good enough to do for part its good enough to do for all.

If your style management works well for your ducks it is a good example for the rest of the state.

.

T

If all the birds were on PUBLIC WATER would I be hunting my land?

Hell no. That is where the rubber meets the road I guess. You truly don't, can't, or won't understand it...

"See ya'll after dark-- time to go work on some of that over-hunted public water...

Its been interesting watching the buzzards circle this season. People have finally figured out that hanging onto the edges of the plantations and the SCR in the N/S Santees is a flawed technique so they have jammed up the Pee Dee, Black and Waccamaw areas.

From Hwy 17 east to the mouth of North AND South Santee Bay and along the ICW yesterday i checked 5 boats, heard less than 15 shots and saw NO dead ducks.

But MAN OH MAN OH MAN are the plantations holding birds ESPECIALLY where they have worked ot get the food in place."

And yet there it is in black and white, lol...