One man's view

[jwilliams]

Calicool, you should really go to the DU magazine on your desk and refer to the article beginning on page 62 to back up your arguments vs. just trying to degrade others and attempting to ridicule them. It really looks like an argument some uneducated Ricky redneck would make. I know better. Then refer them to www.ducksurvey.com
It is DU's way to say, we know YA'll think hunting sucks, but the ducks are doing wonderful. You are so knowledgeable. You must do a lot of volunteer work w/ DU and The flyway foundation. Thanks for all you do.

SOrry for the sarcasm.

[deadriver]

Trigger is moron as usual.
That said....

Yes our professionals USFWS can be wrong, they have been before. Lets see USFWS used to allow harvest of raptors yet a boilogist should know that only an R selected species can handle any real harvest pressure and that any predator is inately smaller in population and less successful at propogation. They are wrong this time, but it is the egocentric nature of man to believe his right and find a means to falsely justify it.

The current seasons and regs changed the day they implemented AHM. Since that time numbers at refuges around the country have fallen during winter survey across the east, miss, and cent flyways..... So where do the high numbers come from.... A computer program - AHM. They will want to beleive they are right till it is too late. The history of this countrys conservation management is marred with reactive strategies not proactive strategies.

As NAB said, the numbers are down everywhere relatively speaking. But if you werent hunting OOS like some of us were 15+ years ago, you would not know that. Ask a local when you are there, see what they tell you....

I reapeat myself on this site "Manage populations, not people and politics".

Gifford Pinchot was right - "for the greatest good, for the longest period of time". But then triggers dumb ass does not even know who that is.

Trigger- Ur too damn uneducated and dumb to debate on issues of this magnitude. The mark of the "masses" in history have been that they were subject to propoganda from their leadership, church, and government. Discerning men, men of education and intellect, will always question what they are told to inevitibly search for the peice of truth that lies in everything.

I try every day to seek the truth and not just be handed a bill of goods or live by my own bias....Do you??!!

Ignorence does abound. Trigger, you would vote for whoever the media tell you to vote for becuase you could not remember the events of a year ago and make an EDUCATED and INFORMED decision.

[deadriver]

www.ducksurvey.com
It is DU's way to say, we know YA'll think hunting sucks, but the ducks are doing wonderful. You are so knowledgeable. You must do a lot of volunteer work w/ DU and The flyway foundation. Thanks for all you do.

SOrry for the sarcasm. [/QB]

<font size="-1" face="verdana,arial,helv">DU also thought ducks were on an downhill trend due to planting near pot holes in the praries in the 80's. A graad student back then wrote an article that i read where he theorized that the duck pops were cyclic and followed the cyclic droughts of 15-20 yrs or so. He inicated that he believed that the ducks would be fine as soon as the rain came back to the praries and inundated lands that farmer were trying farm... DU did not agree! It would have meant that they could not use the "destroying the praries" agenda to raise dollars if they said that rain would fix it all with or without or help. Funny how the rain came back to the praries in 91-92 and by 94 the NAWMP was claiming credit for the exploding duck numbers even though it had just been put into action.....Propoganda by USFWS and DU.

I love DU, I support DU. But quote someone who had no financial interest at all, even it is a non profit dollars, do you think they want to not have a job!! I have met with their top in SC and can tell you that new ways to raise $$ is what they think about every day....

Look for truth.

[JABIII]

[Catdaddy]

Originally posted by deadriver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /><font size="-1" face="verdana,arial,helv"> www.ducksurvey.com
It is DU's way to say, we know YA'll think hunting sucks, but the ducks are doing wonderful. You are so knowledgeable. You must do a lot of volunteer work w/ DU and The flyway foundation. Thanks for all you do.

SOrry for the sarcasm.

<font size="-1" face="verdana,arial,helv">DU also thought ducks were on an downhill trend due to planting near pot holes in the praries in the 80's. A graad student back then wrote an article that i read where he theorized that the duck pops were cyclic and followed the cyclic droughts of 15-20 yrs or so. He inicated that he believed that the ducks would be fine as soon as the rain came back to the praries and inundated lands that farmer were trying farm... DU did not agree! It would have meant that they could not use the "destroying the praries" agenda to raise dollars if they said that rain would fix it all with or without or help. Funny how the rain came back to the praries in 91-92 and by 94 the NAWMP was claiming credit for the exploding duck numbers even though it had just been put into action.....Propoganda by USFWS and DU.

I love DU, I support DU. But quote someone who had no financial interest at all, even it is a non profit dollars, do you think they want to not have a job!! I have met with their top in SC and can tell you that new ways to raise $$ is what they think about every day....

Look for truth. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]<font size="-1" face="verdana,arial,helv">[img]graemlins/iagree.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/thumb2.gif[/img]

[Nab]

DU's in about the same boat as the late '80's to mid '90's - they are forgeting theirs roots and are just worrying about raising $$$ - they think once again that $$$$ = ducks - wrong - if you don't spend it wisely then you just spent it and didn't help a damn thing. They need to be worrying about how to help the ducks then go get the money and do it - worried way to much about the means instead of the end again.

[jwilliams]

So far, the only non profit I have found for the ducks that is not eaten up with self interest is the FF. I hope it always stays that way. No politics. No Highly paid DIRECTORS....No heated duck blinds with running water and toilet seats....Just about the ducks.

I don't disagree w/ duck pops being cyclic. I believe the weather is also...some good food for thought posted above.

[Stripa Swipa]

You boys can continue to debate the "why don't we have ducks" issues but you are showing your ignorance when it comes to major nonprofit organzations. Folks like DU that convert such a high ratio of their dollars to equity for the mission have pulled off nothing short of miracles. Large nonprofits are more complex and tougher to run than private enterprises of comparable sizes. They have to do it with much less in the way of resources. If you don't believe in what they are doing, then don't give. "Eaten up with self interest." I think that statement would better apply to a large percentage of SC duck hunters.

[jwilliams]

When you get to a point that you can't look objectively at an organization, then you have become nothing more than a bobblehead doll. I don't think the numbers match up over the past several years, and I just finished reading DU's "the number don't add up" article in this months DU magazine. It tells the average Joe that he doesn't UNDERSTAND the numbers. I agree that I don't study the numbers in detail enough to understand them.
My point is, don't pee down my back and tell me its raining. Anyone that does a fair amount of hunting in state and oos know that the numbers have been going down.
Anytime anyone criticizes anything DU does, there are a few bobblehead dolls that come here and say "you are ignorant" "you can't say that"

I support DU. I support my president. But I don't think he is flawless anymore. Neither is DU.

[jwilliams]

That wasn't all directed towards you, either, stripa.

[Stripa Swipa]

Now that's a little different way of looking at it. As a donor, I believe you have an obligation to question how resources are being used to advance the mission. Just remember it's about the mission, NOT YOU! To paint the organization as a bunch of fat cats that are taking advantage of Joe donor to make life better for themselves is a load of crap. It's also a slap in the face to executives that could be working less and making much more in the private sector. Reading DU magazine isn't exactly doing your homework. It's just their attempt at PR combat to overcome stuff like internet rants that give the real bobbleheads bad information.

...and that wasn't all directed at you Art.

[Nab]

Very well said art - we've been giving for so long to these orgs that we just learn to believe what they say even when we see different with out own eyes and hear different with our own ears - all of the ducks we supposedly have have been doing a great job of hiding from many people - trigger is the exception - with the advent of the internet and such it's hard to say things that can't be verified quickly anymore - can't just say the ducks are still up north when the people can tell you the same day that they aren't there.
I'll still get a laugh when I read the article from a few yrs back talking about the record flight for that year - they were trying to tell people that there were more ducks that yr than at anytime before! oh, ok, since 1955 - give me a damn break - things are getting worse - not better - and we better start working for the ducks instead of the hunters - sort of like the habitat that helps ducks helps many other species - help the ducks and be truthful and you will help the hunter in the end also.

[jwilliams]

DU does a lot of good. I will continue to support them. DU does fat cat around some too. I know, you have to do this to cater to the big money donors. Heated blinds are too much. Doesn't mean the whole org is bad. means they need to get better.

[deadriver]

Originally posted by Stripa Swipa:
They have to do it with much less in the way of resources. If you don't believe in what they are doing, then don't give. "Eaten up with self interest." I think that statement would better apply to a large percentage of SC duck hunters.

<font size="-1" face="verdana,arial,helv">The oposite is true, Stripa. They have less to do with more resources, i know people that are an integral part of quite several big non profits and I mean management of branches not technicians. I hear about the big dollars that the Nature Conservancy get to do the same project we do for 25% of the money as an engineering firm and with 4 times the people on the project. You are way off of the truth on that one.

DU's mission statement is not to assist in waterfowl management, it it to preserve habitat. They are the best orgainzation in the history of the country at doing that. But lets not tout them as the tell all end all of waterfowl biology. Frankly, Delta is leading the way in that field and DU is on their back trail!!!

The article in DU is the first thing that has ever made me question sponsoring DU any longer. Not heated duck blinds or any other bull shit, but dont slap your revenue source in the mouth...

I do understand the numbers, as a matter of fact not a damn person is talking about NUMBERS. They are all quoting propaganda that does not have historic numbers of relevence. Where is the national count of total number or ducks peak winter populations in Refuges across the country??????????

Go OOS, visit with the refuge manager, look at peak numbers of those OOS refuges in Ark, Miss, Neb, Sodak, Nodak and then explain to me why they are 50% lower where i hunt than they were in 1992!!!


As stated. As sportsman, it is our obligation to question and seek truth. "For the Greatest Good"!!! It is a damn good thing the duck hunters of old did not just say, well the govt lets me shoot all of them I can shoot so it is the right thing to do. Mr. Buck is probably rolling over in his grave...

The point is statistics can be manipulated to show you whatever you want. The stats they are giving you are all from NEW means of doing population estimates. Would'nt you like to know what the current estimates would be by using the old methods???????

Damn, this is frustrating. They are telling you numbers and comparing it to old numbers, which are not derived in the same manner. NO scientific research in the world could be conducted in this manner!!!!


SEEK THE TRUTH


I am trying to compile a data set from refuges back for decades. Those are real numbers. That is an index. Same places, same dates, what do those numbers say. My recollection of counts at Sand Lake in Sodak were much higher in 1993 when i first requested them than they are when Bill, the manager, emails those counts each week last year.

By the way. How many of ya'll actuall look for the truth enough to observer refuge counts on the places you hunt each year????

Without knowledge, we are unarmed!

I will continue to support DU, NC waterfowl, Delta, NWTF, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, Quail Unlimite, Society of American Foresters, The Wildlife Society, American Society of Civil Engineers, American Institute of Professional Hydrologist, and the Nature Conservancy. If they waste the money, then fine....... I tried!!

Kinda like justifying shooting a 4 pt cuase your neighbor will shoot him, but when you shoot he is ass is dead. Nothing can be gained by us not supporting the cause, but I can choose to not support the leadership...

[deadriver]

Originally posted by Nab:
help the ducks and be truthful and you will help the hunter in the end also.

<font size="-1" face="verdana,arial,helv">Thanks Nab.

Funny how most of the people on here who actually spend their personal time involved in trying to make a difference have the same attitude and the one who dont want to be told to shoot less ducks in less day all have the same attitude also.

Takers and Givers. I am no taker.

We went through this last year and I will repeat my sentiment then.

Some of you wil understand this, most wont..

Ducks are R selected. Right? So if we limit harves for 3 years and they do not rebound, then harvest is not the problem and we are all just screwed cause then we dont know why the numbers are low and you can have a 100 day season and 10 duck limit. That would prove or disprove the "compesatory mortality" theory.

But then you have to believe the numbers are low. Personally, I cant believe their is even a debate about it..WTF


TRUTH

[JABIII]

Deadriver, boy have I got an idea for you. Give me a call...

[Stripa Swipa]

I still haven't articulated my point well enough. You guys are using anecdotal information to come up with reasons to say "these organizations aren't being run as well as they could be." That's a blinding glimpse of the obvious. Most of my knowledge on big nonprofits centers around the accounting/finance area. I'll try to make a example there to illustrate what I'm referring to. Have you ever heard of Sarbanes Oxley? The intent of that law is to protect you from the kind of misuse of financial resources that you are semi-accusing these organizations of. My guess is that DU has prolly spent hundreds of thousands...maybe into the millions just on adjusting accounting practices to comply with that law. They probably don't pay their financial staff nearly what they would be worth in the private sector. They also have a much more complicated financial structure Exxon Mobil. Every penny Exxon earns can be spent anywhere they see fit. Most of the DU money raise has a designated purpose and must be tracked and allocated accordingly. When you start pooling the money for investments and other things, you can't even imagine how complicated and difficult this becomes. Some of the organizations that Deadriver mentioned...while I'm a huge fan of their missions, are very poorly run and lots of dollars are wasted. Disagree with DU's priorities and mission effectiveness and you will not hear a peep from me. Calling dedicated people disingenuous without anything but visions of heated duckblinds and I'll keep on chirpin.

[JABIII]

Heated duckblind? Shit, I am thinking about putting in AC...

[deadriver]

Originally posted by Stripa Swipa:
while I'm a huge fan of their missions, are very poorly run and lots of dollars are wasted. Disagree with DU's priorities and mission effectiveness and you will not hear a peep from me. Calling dedicated people disingenuous without anything but visions of heated duckblinds and I'll keep on chirpin.

<font size="-1" face="verdana,arial,helv">I dont think i any way implied misappropriations os funds and I agree their accouting is legitimate from my experience with non profits. I even agree that they perform their mission beutifully, they have preserved a hell of alot of land.

But DU should not be the poster child for mgt. They have little history in innovative breakthoughs in waterfowl biology, and ironically, it is not their stated mission...

So, keep chirpin

I think we are questioning their intentions on the political side. We would like to see DU and others more discerning in the support of laws and regulations...

Calling you Johnny.

[jwilliams]

[img]graemlins/lol.gif[/img] you have a point. This one was in Tennessee.
And it had running water going to it. You ain't that good yet. We used to have a heater and grill/cooker on the ole pontoon blind. That was before the jealous have nots shot it and sank it.