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  1. #1
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    April 28, 2006 Mad Duck.org

    The Sportsman’s Voice
    For Waterfowl Conservation
    ONE MAN’S VIEW

    By David F. Zentner

    I began hunting at age 10 and remain an enthusiastic hunter at the age of 69.
    Although I am a lay person, wildlife and habitat conservation have been very important
    to me since junior high school days. I have great respect for the wildlife management
    profession. My early mentors instilled in me the importance of supporting our wildlife
    management professionals. I was told then, and I believe now, it is best in the long run
    for our game and fish.

    So, how can I speak on the complex subject of continental duck management with
    such strong conviction that we are – and have been for some time – headed in the wrong
    direction? I may not be a professional, but in my lifetime as a hunter, conservationist,
    cooperator with many of the pros, I do not hesitate to say that I feel that today’s
    managing philosophy around duck harvest has strayed significantly from an original
    philosophy to err (if at all) in favor of the duck. In addition, managing agencies seem to
    have abandoned earlier commitments to the traditions of “fair chase.”

    Here are some observations I’ve made based on experience. When I became a
    hunter in the late 1940’s, the duck season was 35-45 days, the limit four birds, and the
    waterfowl habitat from north-to-south and east-to-west was far more abundant and in
    better overall condition. Back them electronic technology, easy access to wetlands, the
    ability to comfortably travel long distances, and internet communications on where the
    birds might be were non existent. Today we have several of our most popular species in
    decline, below long term target goals by enormous amounts, less habitat, deteriorated
    habitat, predator explosions, and long and liberal duck seasons! Go figure.

    I would love to share letters I have received from expert hunters who are in their
    seventies and eighties who write about how “the duck” is gone and how sad they are,
    often angry as well. They’ve killed more than their share and they know it; they are
    simply saddened by what they’ve seen. Some of these letter writers have hunted six,
    seven, even eight decades. Management professionals often write off such observations
    with the “anecdotal” word. The pros point out that duck hunters’ views are too narrow,
    that duck hunters will never have the “big picture” of what is taking place in North
    America in so far as ducks are concerned. The professionals tell us that migration
    patterns are changing due to agricultural changes, hunting pressure, warmer autumns, and
    other factors. No doubt these changes do influence flights and what hunters see. But such
    talk reminds me of a movie about buffalo hunting that I watched as a boy. The buffalo
    hunters were doing poorly. Each night back at camp they would share stories about their
    lack of success and trade rumors about where the buffalo might be found. They kept
    changing camps to find the buffalo. After many camps they knew the buffalo were gone.

    Are there parallels? This year because pintails were up eighteen per cent, (yet
    still at or near recorded all time lows) the regulations extended the one bird daily limit for
    the total season, versus the “season within a season” we had last year. My point is not
    that the change is a big impact, my point is how eager, how addicted professional
    managers are to liberal seasons, to killing birds, to the idea of compensatory mortality.

    Our regulators would have you and I believe that they scientifically manage duck
    populations with great objectivity. I agree good management has occurred and that many
    past and present managers care about our flocks. But let’s face it, much of the regulatory
    process is a political struggle between the states and the federal folk, with the overall
    duck kill divided between the politics of the north and south. The satisfaction of the duck
    hunter is often put before the welfare of the duck. The waterfowl bureaucracy has little
    interest in issues of fair chase and ethical leadership.

    To blame our agencies for all of duck hunting’s present woes would be grossly
    unfair. Duck hunters, duck clubs, and politicians who influence and manipulate the
    system so that some duck hunters can kill more ducks are a big part of the problem.
    Hardly a day goes by that someone comments in the outdoor press about the “antis” and
    the threats they pose to hunting. Let us take an unflinching look in the mirror. If I were
    observing duck hunters as a nonhunter, my impression is very likely quite negative. I
    would see competition vs. cooperation and reliance on technology vs. emphasis on skills,
    coupled with pathetic bird identification in many cases. We need to get a lot better on
    average at what we do. By improving, our satisfaction rate will go up considerably,
    emphasis will be on quality not quantity and there will be far less traction for the folk
    who would like us to go away.

    Let us begin by establishing what I believe is a reasonable daily bag limit –
    NEVER MORE THAN FOUR. We fractured the four-bird bag in the 1970s starting with
    the days of the point system, and then by setting species specific higher limits for surplus
    this and surplus that. Now, we are told there is little biological benefit in reducing the
    limit from six to four, that the cut must be deeper – say to two – to really bring back the
    breeders. That may be statistically defensible, but it does not meet the litmus test of
    moving the system in favor of conserving, in fact moving the culture back to one of
    conservation. In the absence of harvest data certainty, the daily bag limit should be
    adequate, not maximal. If we adopt a four-bird limit, I am convinced that slowly but
    surely some duck hunters will quit at two or three, just as anglers who practice catch and
    release stop way short of killing a limit.

    Unlike anglers, we have yet to figure out how to re-cycle ducks except by
    substituting the camera for the shotgun. My experiences have included witnessing the
    collapse of fishery stocks that were not due to degraded habitat, pure and simple they
    were over exploited by liberal regulations. When more conservative regulations were
    enacted the fish responded very quickly. Now, ducks are not fish, but I will say this,
    emphasis on habitat in the fish and wildlife programs of many land grand colleges is so
    over riding that many professional managers near retirement before they have enough
    experience to begin to wonder a bit about management priorities.

    And what about the duck managers, what do they think? To be honest, I am not sure. I
    wish I was. I do know that in the years since I and others have begun to question liberal
    bags and seasons more than a few folk currently involved with duck management have let
    us know they agree in no uncertain terms. To be fair, others have strongly expressed their
    support for the present system of Adaptive Harvest Management, and their belief that kill
    has little to do with population trends. Others while not as outspokenly supportive as the
    first group go off the record and encourage us to “keep asking tough questions”.

    Are you bewildered by all of this? I am not. What I’ve seen in my years of
    hunting and fishing makes me very comfortable in pushing for fewer birds killed and
    more breeders returning to the nesting grounds. If I am wrong, what have I done to the
    resource? I am right, and hunting under liberal regulations is causing additive mortality
    (harming the breeding population), then what are the consequences not only for ducks,
    but also for the future of hunting? Where will the next generation of hunters come from,
    some of whom might be greatly interested not just in hunting, but also in active
    conservation work?

    There are many contradictions in today’s game codes and in agency
    pronouncements. Hen mallards are generally afforded more protection than drakes, yet
    some prominent waterfowl managers loudly proclaim there is no biological basis for any
    protection for hens not given to drakes. Agencies base their compensatory mortality
    arguments in part on high population turn-over rates, yet ducks are relatively long-lived
    birds with some very accurate repeat nesting over several years. Recent studies show not
    all hens are created equal and that conserving hens in order to optimize the usually more
    successful veteran breeder makes good sense. Which is it? And, in the recovery of some
    species, waterfowl managers claim results related to closed or greatly restricted seasons a
    very valuable tool.

    I believe the time is past due to bring the hunter and the manager into closer
    relationships, to manage more conservatively, and to once again begin to confront tough
    issues with courage, candor, and a long-term point of view. Our duck surveys are
    valuable tools, yet managing harvest in part by analyzing data from surveys that cover
    one per cent of the continent is very problematic to me, the margin for error is likely
    considerable.

    I believe the duck badly needs more conservative managers – managers that are to
    put it bluntly more humble, less certain that they are 100 percent right. I believe hunters
    need to be more involved. What do we want out of our hunt? Do we want all the ducks
    we can squeeze out of the politics involved in “dividing up the kill”? Do we want to
    emphasize every gimmick and use every bit of technology to harass birds throughout
    their range and throughout the day? Or, do we want to improve our skills, maintain an
    abiding interest in fair chase, and celebrate ducks, dogs, friends, the sound of wings
    overhead? If we take care of the ducks, the ducks will take care of us.
    Well I was too young and pretty and the whores wouldn't leave me alone.

  2. #2
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    boom boom - that is some of the best reading I've ever seen on here - he is right - we need to do what is right for the ducks and no worry about the hunters - that's why I think all of these hunter surveys are stupid - it's just a way of covering your ass by doing what the hunter wants - we do need people that know there is no 100% right way of doing something and still not be too scared to try something.
    This will be read at the next WAC meeting for any good it might do.
    I always thought a website was a selling tool, not a product repair manual!

  3. #3
    trigger Coots

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    In reply to the same stupid ass article on another forum by Wack- It applies right to ole has been Nab.

    There seems to be some reason you bird watchers and Audobon wackos think that is a problem. To hell with what you or anybody that thinks like you, thinks.

    Just exactly at what point did the man that likes the actual act of killing ducks during DUCK SEASON, become the enemy??

    The fact is...North American waterfowl are the most studied creatures on planet earth. So I'll take that biology and run with it before I even spend a minute giving a shit what people like you and the wackos think.

    I just don't think I'll spend much time worrying about what you self-proclaimed purists, "been there done" that, think...I'll just keep on with the effort of trying to kill a legal limit EVERYDAY... and that's good enough for me.

    Unlike some of you has-beens....I just don't tire of it and will continue to chase down and wack the sumbitches as long as the good Lord gives me the physical ability.

    So to hell with you and that bunch of wore out, elitist wackos over at Madduck. You're all just a bunch of bitter old sumbitches that have lost your edge and begrudge us that have'nt.

    Hell Griff and I are both approaching our 50's, and have hunted ducks since we were kids. Which pretty much dispells the point some of you wacko's come up with that we have'nt somehow 'evolved' to some different level that only you has-beens can understand.

    Hell not every old bastard is a has-been, cause I hunt with some elderly gentlemen that hate the mofos worse than me. Face it...you've lost the edge. Just admit it and leave the rest of us the hell out of the equation. You're just one more group we don't have to deal with in the field anymore.

    I guess the next thing some ole wore out bunch of sumbitches will have a problem with those of us that still actually like a good shot of pussy every now and then.

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    I guess the next thing some ole wore out bunch of sumbitches will have a problem with those of us that still actually like a good shot of pussy every now and then.
    <font size="-1" face="verdana,arial,helv">alias
    or
    rick flair himself.

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    Nab,

    Here is the link to thier site. They have a few other editorials you might find interesting.


    http://www.madduck.org/

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    trigger - what in the hell did you just say? You seem to have gotten even more stupid acting in an attempt to put me down again.
    If you think I don't like killing ducks or don't kill ducks anymore then you're wrong again - I still kill my fair share and love doing it - I just don't have to brag about it or post every pic I take to feel good about myself - other want to do that then it's fine by me.
    The biggest thing I agree with in the article is the fact that it seems so many obvious things are covered up by using the old "well the hunters want this" - hell, we better start doing what is right for the ducks again or even you won't be able to limit out everytime out.
    Hell, the only thing the average fellow has to tell him how the ducks are doing these days is the season lengths and limits - hell, the ducks must be doing great since we have a long limit and 6 duck limit - well, they aren't - we have the longest seasons, highest limits, earlier and later openings and closings than anytime in regulated history - that while habitat is disappearing, more tech stuff is coming out everyday and more people are duck hunting in smaller areas.
    So imho, it boils down to money - nobody wants to piss anybody off by doing anything the hunter might not want and to hell with the ducks.
    This is not about who kills a limit more or who likes to hunt better - it's bout doing what's right for the ducks so we will have some in the future.
    I always thought a website was a selling tool, not a product repair manual!

  7. #7
    trigger Coots

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    That is what we love about you Nab. Consistancy.

    Too blame dumb to figure out the play but consistantly willing to be WOWED by inflammatory rhetoric from total idots.

    "Mr. Reynolds said this or that so it has to be true!"

    "Them 5 fellers at Madduck sure know what they are talking about!"

    As Wack said in his post, you are really going to sit there and try to tell us that all the biologists from the USFWS, DU, and Delta are just shills for big money duck hunters just because you read it on the internet? Of course you are. Just like always. Consistancy.

    Take that internet post to the next board meeting and read it right on out to your fellow board members. Maybe they won't walk out on you during your rant this time but I wouldn't bet on it.

    I am just fine listening to our professional biologists and so are the people who make the decisions. I could give 2 shits what merganser shooting rickys have to say.

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    trigger - just like I really give one shit about what you say - you follow your biologists and duck managers and we won't have any ducks soon - this world needs a little common sense again - if things were as good as we're led to believe we wouldn't having this "discussion" now.
    As far as this madduck place - never seen it - just feel the article posted here has alot of merit - the others might suck for all I know.
    I always thought a website was a selling tool, not a product repair manual!

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    yall need to kiss and make up or something...i got no dawg in this fight, but both of you do have valid points. I agree with Trigger to say, they pay people smarter than me to dedicate thier entire careers to the studies conducted by the different orgs. However, just like in arkansas, the hunters cry is the squeaky wheel and when the government finds out about "what the hunter wants" to a certain extent they do go overboard to please the hunters, becasue they or we, are the ones spending big bucks on the sport and if lower limits and shorter seasons hurt the tourist dollars they rake in from outtastaters and locals. They tend to side with the hunter, where the money comes from.

    so ther are 2 sides to this coin just liek there are 2 sides on each one in your pocket.


    NAB - The ducks are being saved whether you want to believe it or not, and rome was not built in a day nor is gonna be a small voice like yours to change things.

    trigger - Even though there are lots of scientist and outdoorsman working to help improve things for generations to come, don't underestimate the greedy politicians that pay those guys, they get done what they want done and all of them have thier own agendas, not always in the ducks best interest.


    pound for pound our passion is the most expensive hunting sport out there.

    my .02

  10. #10
    trigger Coots

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    Originally posted by Nab:
    trigger - if things were as good as we're led to believe we wouldn't having this "discussion" now.
    <font size="-1" face="verdana,arial,helv">What you and the other Chicken Little alarmists choose to ignore is that things ARE good, no they are GREAT in the northern half of the country. And let's not forget about the pacific flyway either. They have been having a decade of the best duck hunting that they have ever seen.

    Sure things suck in your little cesspool of the world. When and if the weather changes it will get better. If it doesn't change then you jump in your truck and go kill ducks like the rest of the duck hunters already do. Sitting around pining away for the olden days is pathetic. Duck hunters are still killing ducks. Just because YOU have given up the game doesn't mean that the game is over.

  11. #11
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    I don't know about this maddog group or whatever, but it does make sense that
    A: Duck numbers are down by MY COUNT (even though they may be at an all time high by biologist)

    B: Waaaay more hunters than ducks in SC (although the SCWA is trying to change that [img]graemlins/shakehead.gif[/img] )

    If we all agree that hunting is so crappy, why not cut the season and limits?

    It's not like the deer problem we have here in ole sc, where we need to cull them. What is DU's theory here? Nobody can kill a limit except tamie hunters and they like to buy our stickers, so......????? WHAT?
    WHAT?
    WHAT?
    WHAT?

    That is a bit of common sense
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn View Post
    Does Elton John know you have his shotgun?

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    Steroids have turned his hair white.

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    art, it is true that allot of the data being gathered is showing major improvements in alot of places throughout the country, however, not allot has been done for the ducks in the atlantic. That is the reason for the FF, we as you well know are focusing all of our efforts on our flyway, results will come soon enough.

    IMHO(which means nothing), cutting dates and limits here in our state would do nothing but detur interest in the sport here, cut the funds being donated to make it better, and similar to the GA lottery, we would be sending a ton of people outside of our borders to spend thier money to kill ducks. those that go out of state will continue to get there rocks off killing ducks in other states.

    The mass population here is not as "hardcore" as they think they are or alot more would find themselves in a car headed west & north instead of on the couch bitching about not getting thier 2 woodies. THere are plenty of ducks in and around SC that never come out of the stratosphere long enough to get "hunted". Just cause you see a bunch of boats/rubbaheads on public water doesn't mean they are killing anything more than time.

    i guess we all think we are great hunters and killers, but Obviously the hunters to kill ratio is ok or the limits would have been changed by those orgs in charge of it.

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    IB DOG. Duck numbers are good! No, I am sorry, they are freakin GREAT!!! Thanks for that info, Trigger. We just didn't know that. Now, that I am informed, I shall go and kill the elusive green headed mallard. Cali cool...I knew it was you!!!!! Sorry to hear about the program getting ready to get blistered. I know. Reggie Bush's family meant to pay. [img]graemlins/shakehead.gif[/img]
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn View Post
    Does Elton John know you have his shotgun?

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    IMHO(which means nothing), cutting dates and limits here in our state would do nothing but detur interest in the sport here
    Thaaaaaaats right. That would be terrible! I do hear what you are saying kneedeep, but I have read from DU (and I supported again this year, but I don't believe that they are with out flaw as some do) that the numbers have been up each year. I am an average joe. I don't see those numbers...Not here...Not OOS. Sorry. Perhaps I need to follow Trigger and Hammers, for they are the ones who kill more than all others! I would LOVE TO SEE THE NUMBER OF HUNTERS GO D O W N.
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn View Post
    Does Elton John know you have his shotgun?

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    I am with Art for a change. I don't see the increase in numbers OOS either. Now maybe they are stacking up somewhere and some "magic weather" will solve all of our problems but as far North and West as Saskatchewan, I am seeing less and less each season... Yeah I know, it is just anecdotal evidence and doesn't mean shit to the Pro's...

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    Originally posted by JABIII:
    I am with Art for a change. I don't see the increase in numbers OOS either.
    <font size="-1" face="verdana,arial,helv">I'm with you,Art also, and possibly Nab too. The professional managers with the USFWS are the last to admit they have made a mistake. They have adopted a theory that we don't need as many ducks going back to the breeding grounds. They say spinners haven't increased harvest according to their data. Then the do a survey and find out 52% are using them and also accept other studies that, at a minimum,place increased harvest at 40%.
    You can't have it both ways.......and from my own experience on the bottom of the flyway.....I'll go with the increase in harvest.


    Wack's problem is he's got a good place and when the weather comes he will get his. I wonder how covered up he was a few years back when you couldn't find a mallard around Stuttgart. He just doesn't realize that the Mississippi Flyway is dying like the Atlantic............it will just take longer.


    Nab,
    I posted that link so as you would know where it came from, if you do read it at the meeting. I would hate for you to get blindsided.

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    I think the biggest problem that I have with the "Pro's" is that they keep telling us that hunting is compensatory when I know damn well that it is additive. Robo's have proved that if nothing else. As a waterfowl manager, it behooves me to err on the side of the ducks. Every time...

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    Duhhh - duck hunters are killing ducks - no shit trigger - hell, I even kill some.
    The point is if things were as good as you and the pros think they are we would not be discussing how bad it is here and alot of other places that used to be duck heaven.
    You're such a great duck hunter - hell you can even kill them paper ducks - right a book, hell, tell the pros how to do it.
    You say shut up and quit bitching - nope, because because things are not as good as they should be and are getting worse - most everywhere - and I want ducks around for my kids to hunt.
    Also, you say that there's no politics in it - how do think the later closing - and therefore earlier opening - came about - politics.
    I always thought a website was a selling tool, not a product repair manual!

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