the blackeye for LE topic

[Tuffy]

Trad... You were the other respected voice that I was waiting to hear from. I am genuinely sorry that I have allowed some experiences to cast such a broad shadow on my thinking. I do seriously support LE and that fact is probably what makes me so strongly resent actions by LE that I find inappropriate, be they policy or individuals.

Within the last month alone, I have made several calls and visits to report POSITIVE LE behavior and provide information and, possibly, safety to LE, including offering personal assistance at times. On the other hand, I learned through bad experiences that no good can come of reporting the bad behavior of LE to their superiors and I don't do that anymore. We have to depend on you guys to do that for us and can only imagine just how hard that must be. Still, you guys have the badges and the authority that goes with it and a HIGHER standard comes with both. It's something in which you should take pride and, I hope, be far more angry than any of us with those within your ranks that tarnish your image.

(Trad...I'll send a PM and explain what set me off on this subject.)

[longbearded1]

Charleston City police patrol I-95 in Santee, like they couldn't be used better fighting crime in the "Holy City", yeah right. By the way, Trad it was good to finally meet you at the Classic. How much money was raised with the .410? Surely was a purty gun.

[Swamp Rat]

On the subject of the use of seized drug money to aide the local agency that either made or assisted in the bust... I have no problem with it. It's not as simple as it sounds. The money that is seized is not simply handed over:

First, the case must be adjudicated (go through the whole process) - then, and only then, is a certain amount (I'm not sure what determines that) is provided to the department. It does NOT go to line pockets, unless some oversight is messed up. In most cases, it goes to buy new equipment (especially stuff like bullet resistant vests, new cars, and so forth - you'd be surprised how fast a department goes through cars when they are on the road contantly), training, crime lab/forensics instrumentation, and other vital needs. This does two things:

1) It takes a big burden off of the county or city budget by providing an alternative (although not reliably available) fund source.

2) It allows small departments to have vital equipment that they couldn't otherwise afford.

More importantly, it also allows the money to be put right back into fighting the drug problem... it's like the satisfaction you would get in a battle to find an enemy rifle on the ground, and shoot them with their own stuff.

It is a vital tool. It makes no sense to me for the money to be diverted to programs or budgets ("general fund" kiss of death) that have nothing to do with fighting or dealing with the problem of drug distribution. THAT would be an injustice...

On the other hand, gaining such funds for such purposes should NOT be the focus of why you are making these arrests. It is simply a by-product... the focus is on getting the drugs off the streets, and draining their financial resources.

It's a good system when properly employed.

[Palmetto Bug]

The asset confiscation law gives police departments a financial incentive to maintain the drug war, not to end it. Even if the money doesn't go directly into LE's pockets, it affords them the ability to play with the department's newest and best toys on the job.

The drug war will never end as long as so many folks on both sides are profiting from it.

Did you know that if you get stopped and have more than $10,000 dollars in cash on you, the cops can confiscate it and keep in until you prove it was not the illegitimate gains from drugs? That's right, you have to prove your innocence!! There were several horror stories after hurricane Hugo about folks getting caught while moving with insurance money in their cars.

[Stripa Swipa]

While serving in the military, I was falsely accused of a crime that resulted in aggressive interrogation and investigation. I alone had to provide the evidence to keep from being ruined by what was being handled as a slam dunk conviction on the part of the investigators. While I was incredibly angry at the time, I now know the situation was an anomoly and one example of an imperfect system.

When I meet up with Trad to shoot bows or the bull and I see that dive gear in the back of his truck, I'm reminded of what it must be like to search for somebody's family member on the bottom of a river in the dead of night. To say I'm humbled by that is an understatement. Firefighters, cops, rescue volunteers, soldiers, hell...even ER docs do more for our society than they could ever be repayed for. If "the system" inconveniences me and my fortunate life every now and then, I see it as a small price to pay and maybe the way I handle it is one chance to give a little bit back to the souls that can't be payed enough. Big government sucks but these individuals will get the benefit of the doubt from me.

[Swamp Rat]

Palmetto Bug, you are, of course, entitled to your opinion.

But, as a law enforcement officer, the insinuation that we continue to fight the war on drugs, but without the intent of ending the ready ability of our youth put ruin their lives and bodies with drugs is foreign and ludicrous to me.

And what you see as making possible the law enforcement being able have "the ability to play with the department's newest and best toys on the job", I see as law enforcement having the best ability to pay for the best equipment to do the job, protect themselves, and to protect the rest of society.

Many of the tools needed to be effective, or to be safer (not only the officer or victim, but, believe it or not, the SUSPECT'S safety as well), are expensive to buy and put in the field. Examples being Tasers (which have been shown to be far less likely to produce injury to the officer OR the suspect than when pepper spray or a baton is used), bullet-resistant vests, LOJAK systems, forensic lab capabilities, dash-cams, communications equipment (your lifeline on the road), less-lethal munitions... the list goes on and on.

Many of these tools, without some outside assistance, would simply be out of reach to smaller departments. Government grants help, as does the wonderful In-Vest program, but drug seizure money, when available, can improve a departments ability to fight crime and provide safety to the community and it's officers in a huge way.

Does common sense need to prevail? Sure. That's the key to ALL of it. Even the $10,000 policy you mentioned. Many times, common sense goes out the window, and negative unintended consequences result. That is the nature of the beast - don't accept it, but know how best to deal with it ( I will address that later)

I hate beauracracy as much as anybody... and I hate big government. But the need for an effective law enforcement presence should go without saying.

What to do if you have received or witnessed an inappropriate law enforement contact, or have a problem with law enforcement coverage in your community? Call the sheriff or chief. If your complaint is meritorious, and your law enforcement official (appointed or elected) is worth his/her salt, they will handle it. If not, then wait til November to get a new one, or (if they are appointed) show up at Council meetings. A voice and the pen are still powerful ... and I agree that lapses and issues need to be addressed.

[Sprigtale]

Rat, I agree. Drug seizures is a good way for cops to get new equipment but I do believe that money of a portion of it whould be taken off the tax base. Some kind of split where citizens get credit on taxes for 50% and 50% goes directly to LE. Just my .02

[Catdaddy]

If the person is on his way to Miami to buy a 5 pounds of herion/cocaine and you stop him and take his money, do you think they ship the drugs back to South America?

Let's get real. If all you do is confiscate money you are making the supply greater for the available drug money..........thus making drugs cheaper. That's all.


Now lets look at the operation.

Operation lasts 8 hours a day for three days

10 vehicles(which I saw in a 7 mile stretch)

Pulled someone every 30 minutes.

That's 8X3X10X2= 480 vehicles pulled.

I saw where they caught one with a gun and one with some pot. There may be more announced at the press conference today.

But if the numbers don't change dramatically, that leaves 478 innocent people that got pulled under the pretense of speeding so they could be interegated,delayed in their travel, and shaken down for money........all because they met some predetermined profile.

[ACC/Boykin]

trad, I'll give y'all boy's in green another atta-boy.
One GW in particular( not sure if I should mention names) who patrols edgefield. If all were as helpful, respectful and courteous as this guy Law enforcement wouldn't need to worry about any black eye's. Example: He dosen't command in a harsh way to check your license boat or gun he ask's and very politely I might add. He will even offer up advice on a easier way to get to a location or even places that he himself has spotted game. Years back we had a problem with people (OOS hunters) dumping deer carcasses(they would take just the back hams and antlers) and dump the rest. He was the first to answer the call and would even make perodic checks afterwards to make sure it didn't continue.And I do believe after a lengthy investigation they caught the guy's doing the dumping. GW's like this who go beyond what they are required deserve a lot more recognition than they get.

[Fish]

CatDaddy, as usual, is on the mark. The drug trade is a positive sum game for ALL involved...including the police. This seizure business is complete bullshit. It's nothing more than an excuse to encroach on our civil rights for financial gain uncleverly disguised as a tool used against the drug trade.

The "war on drugs" is a complete waste of time and money. I once read a statistic in some econ text that stated for every 2 billion dollars spent on curbing the illegal drug trade, the result was a .2% decrease in drug traffic. I think it would be safe to say, it's a loser.

But still, it's a favorite of our "moral majority"...the same assholes that will drink a beer but look down their noses at marijuana.

Prohibition is the cause of all drug related violence, which is to say more or less, prohibition IS the problem. Drugs are here to stay. People (including children) like them and they will always use them no matter how any of you might feel about it. Thinking that the drug trade can be curbed even slightly, much less effectively, by any means is positively absurd.

[Green Heads Only]

Fish, now that's just plain ignorant! Or pot stirring! [img]graemlins/pain10.gif[/img]

[Tuffy]

I guess I'll have ongoing questions and concerns, but I'm trying to understand. I actually stopped in at the command post in Florence and listened to the wrap-up presentation to the group. The Lt in charge gave me a tour of the weapons and drugs that were confiscated (that was strange for me).

We had a talk about the purposes and methods and I came away feeling like this particular operation had good leadership, anyway. I specially noticed that he was pretty much able to recite the drug quantities, but had to do some research to tell me anything about how much money they had confiscated. The numbers should be on the Florence Morning News site soon. I later told the Sheriff that I still had some concerns, but was very appreciative of the reaction I was getting from his people to my questions. He helped me get in touch with a local gobbler chaser that I haven't been able to track down.

All-in-all, it's good to hear from the good guys here and on the streets. I'll always vote for keeping an eye on the folks working for us, though.

BTW: I have noticed that there was no obvious tendency to emphasize the southbound side this week. My rough estimate would call it about 50/50 after 10 drives through the area.

Swamp... You didn't return my call on another subject? It wasn't a big deal, but you'll have to tell me if it's out-of-line to want to take advantage of your expertise. If so, I do apologize. If not, you owe me lunch for not getting back to me. I found the answer to my question; WVA was helpful.

[Tuffy]

Oh yeah...CD...

The operation was bigger than that and lasted more than 3 days (I think), more than 8 hours, more officers, and more stops per hour. I have been there at 8 am, mid afternoon, and late night and they were always busy. There were 1294 citations, and I saw quite a bit of confiscated drugs in the commmand center. There was a table stacked high with reefer and a LOT of coke in various forms. There actually weren't a lot of weapons, but there were a few, mostly automatic handguns and one rifle. I coudn't get a number of uncited stops from them, but all that I know of personally were of that nature. I think they stopped over 2000 cars this week

Well run, good intentions, bad idea. That's what I can't help but conclude... still learning, though.

[daddy duck]

Hey, I got an idea...........for those of you who don't like what the Police Depts are doing around the State........Well get off your lazy white ass and join the the ranks.....and change it...........compaining is all I hear. Try the shoes on and then tell me your complaints. I for one am tired of having to defend my carrer choice. You know the one....protecting your sorry butts.

[Swamp Rat]

Tuffy - message sent!

[Tuffy]

Thanks, Swamp. I should note here, too, that it was MY bad to make the call with personal questions. I'm sorry and hope you can understand why I make those kinds of mistakes. I am guilty of the same thing with others and wonder why I don't get any answers from them, either.

DD... You don't personally need any defense and your career field is admirable and underappreciated as I try to include in every post. That's a LONG ways from enough to make the discussion and legitimate criticism off-limits, though, don't you honestly think? Protecting my lazy butt doesn't give any man, woman, organization, or career path the right to do any **** thing they please and be free of any questions or comments about it, IMO.

Surely many of my thoughts on this topic haven't been my finest mental moments and I don't think that was yours either, DD. Still, the fact that there ARE "good guys" with negative impressions of LE should be of REAL concern to you, I would think. It would be to me if I had chosen that career path. Instead, I chose a different public-service career... two of them, in fact, and the negative impressions of your career are STILL a concern to me.

If a man says "all cops are crooks" or "you can't trust any of the B****", I personally guarantee you that I'll be the FIRST to call him on that here or to his face. Similarly, ....

Aww, to Hell with it. If YOU, of all people, are that defensive on the subject, the LE/public relationship is worse than I thought and I'd just as soon stay out of it. I HATE most of the bad guys with their basic attitude of disrespect and don't trust enough of the good guys to feel safe talking about it. Every decent person in LE should be ashamed of that fact and I think all they want is for me to shut up. I will; hope it helps.

[Fish]

Originally posted by daddy duck:
Hey, I got an idea...........for those of you who don't like what the Police Depts are doing around the State........Well get off your lazy white ass and join the the ranks.....and change it...........compaining is all I hear. Try the shoes on and then tell me your complaints. I for one am tired of having to defend my carrer choice. You know the one....protecting your sorry butts.

"Tired of defending"..."sorry butts"..."complaining is all I hear"...say what? That's a GREAT ATTITUDE you have there duck. Nobody said a word about you or any officer in this thread. This is about policy.

That was very poorly done. Very poor indeed. You need to get a grip on your emotions and perhaps re-evaluate your career choice if that's all you have to offer.

Originally posted by Tuffy:
Every decent person in LE should be ashamed of that fact and I think all they want is for me to shut up.

Wow Tuffy! What a powerful, legitimate, and poignant statement. It's a feeling with which I can plainly relate but never thought to varbalize. Perhaps the LE's that find themselves feeling defensive about this issue might ponder on that one for a moment.

This thread started with Crippler talking about how he was disappointed in some of us for questioning our government. Crippler was wrong.

After what has been expressed in here, I'm pretty sure it is we, the public, who should be disappointed in this "shut up, who are you to question, leave us alone to conduct our business any way we want" insanity. You individual officers on here do not make policy. All you do is inforce it. If this discussion upsets you, you definately have a problem.

[daddy duck]

So let me understand this correctly, Fih you or any body can say what they want to. but when I do............ I have a problem. Bull shit bubba, I think and feel just like the next man, my emotions run high and yes so does the temper..after all I "WE" are just human. When one Law Enforcement Officer messes up, We all take the brunt....and I am tired of hearing how "WE" are bad cops, or "WE" should be doing this or that. One officer saves a life...and you don't hear a damn thing. "WE" my friend are doing it...everyday 24/7. Tuffy I really do understand what you were trying to say, but I have a right to say what I think and how I feel as well as the next man. This in no way shape or form excludes the fact that we are friends and will always be friends. I just gave my opinion. Bad subject for a bad day, I quess, lost two brothers in the line of duty back in the states and lost three over here. My statement remains the same. Don't judge unless you put the shoes on.

[Trenchards]

Daddy Duck and Trad have the same issue. That no one ever compliments Law Enforcement for doing the right thing, but are quick to point out their faults. Welcome to grown up life. In my job as well as the rest of the grown ups on this site you go about your day and do your job and the only time you hear from superiors or the general public is when you are messing up.

[Tuffy]

Everybody's right to one degree or another; that might be why it is an issue better dealt with in other settings. So much comes across as "at", rather than "about" and that has to have an impact.

DD... You're dead on. Mine was a personal reaction and I didn't like yours in return. That, too, was my bad. As long as you feel just as irate with internal bad behavior and I know you do, we're in perfect agreement; the rest is just a matter-of-perspective.

In another time and another setting, I would be interesting in better understanding some policy & procedure issues from that other perspective, but this obviously ain't the right place for it. If we seem to either cast blanket condemnation or stifle discussion among men-of-good-will, we're doing a disservice to all. For about the 10th time, I'm sorry if my remarks contribute to that.