Weather vs Breeding Ground Success

[duckman88]

absolutely I agree 100%.

[Rubberhead*]

I know I am opening a can of worms here but.....
do you really think that a 3 bird limit instead of 6 significantly effects the population statistically.

The USFWS services says there are two things that affect duck harvest annually: Lenght of season and number of hunters.

Their information is based on a consistent average of roughly 1.0 ducks/day/hunter regardless of the daily bag limit. Increasing the number of days or the number of hunters will increase the annual harvest.

Going with that, the 3 ducks per day are a way of reducting the number of hunters.

[drwilly]

i hear you there, rubber. But that doesnt address the ongoing debate by learned experts on both sides about how significantly or insignificantly duck hunter harvest actually effects overall bird population.

if you have 1000$ and give me 1$ every year and then one year I ask for 3$, though I have tripled my take does it really effect your 1000$. especially when other sources may be taking 10$, 20$, 50$, or even 100s$.

these arent meant to represent actually percentages w ducks but to demonstrate a point w a simple analogy.

[Rubberhead*]

i hear you there, rubber. But that doesnt address the ongoing debate by learned experts on both sides about how significantly or insignificantly duck hunter harvest actually effects overall bird population.

if you have 1000$ and give me 1$ every year and then one year I ask for 3$, though I have tripled my take does it really effect your 1000$. especially when other sources may be taking 10$, 20$, 50$, or even 100s$.

these arent meant to represent actually percentages w ducks but to demonstrate a point w a simple analogy.

If they disagree half of them ain't learned enough. The long and short are that under some conditions, hunting has an effect on the population we just don't always know under what conditions.

There is some pretending that hunting is zero impact. If hunting really were zero impact, why would we need to manage breeding grounds and provide wintering habitat? The truth is that hunting does impact populations but, with management, long-term stability of the population is possible even under conditions where hunting is allowed. We don't have to pretend, we've proven it over the last 7 decades.

I am, however, worried that the last decade, we've begun to lose our way again...

[drwilly]

I cant speak for everyone but I dont think it is a question of WHETHER hunting impacts populations but to what degree. The logic being that if it is minimal enough, then why continue to "over restrict" hunting when other issues are way more pivotal to protecting the population long and short term. IF (and that is the big issue "if") 6 bird limit vs 3 bird limit (or 60 days vs 45 days or whatever) doesnt negatively impact overall bird numbers then why do it and make it less desirable for people to try to go and lose hunters and hunting supporters both now and future generations. More restrictions and rules aren't always better. but the "if in doubt lets restrict and limit people" agenda doesnt sit well with me in duck hunting or any other political or philosophical debate.

IMO we as hunters need to be extremely careful that in our passionate pursuit of reasonable sustainable conservation, that we dont start sounding and spouting off some of the false dogma that the Al Gore's and other "green radical environmentalists" do. I believe one can be a sound thoughtful conservationist/sportsman without falling over into the sky is falling mentality that they preach and indoctrinate, whether it is duck numbers, global warming, endangered species, whatever.

I am not saying that is what you are saying by any means. but we as hunters need to distance ourselves from that dialogue all together. and realize that if we dont "drink the koolaid" that doesnt mean we are NOTconservation sustainable minded.

[Rubberhead*]

My point is that duck hunting has become commercial again. There are far too many folks that make a significant portion of their incomes from duck hunting. This creates political pressure for long seasons and high limits.

The sustainability of duck hunting means keeping it as pure as possible. By pure, I mean without undue political or financial influence. I believe, too, that the Internet has created a generation of duck hunters that feel like they have to post photos of huge piles of dead birds. There is no doubt in my mind that a lot of those birds go to waste.

I don't have a problem with a hunter shooting a six bird limit. I occassionally, very purposefully, try to kill a limit myself.

But, a hunter should also be able to be fully satisified with one well-hunted bird. I speak openly about always putting the gun away after killing a black duck.

There are folks that won't bother to get up and go if the limit is less than 5 or 6. I say those folks shouldn't be hunting ducks at all - they've missed something in their education process. An occassional 3 bird season might weed a few folks out or, better, clarify a few minds about the true vaule and freedom of a wild duck hunt.

[drwilly]

good points. most of the cool memorable things about "ducking" aren't as photo friendly as a pile of birds...the sounds, smells, wind, sunrises and sunsets, etc.

[2thDoc]

and dead shit

[drwilly]

its hard to sore with the eagles...

[duckman88]

drwilly the biggest factor that hurts waterfowl populations is habitat loss. This goes pretty much with any species of animal on the earth. If thier populations are dropping then you can follow the trail of problems and I garantee that trail ends at habitat loss. Famers nowadays are farming everything that they possibly can. That is why so much land is being put into wrp/crp or easements. That way the land can be managed/conserved forever. But shortening the season and dropping the limit can't hurt the population.

As for the number of hunters, more hunters = more power. So I guess it is a happy medium. You don't want #'s so low that we lose our say. But too many hunters is just a pain as we all know.

[drwilly]

"So I guess it is a happy medium. "

well said. dont EVER run for office duckman, you are too logical, balanced and level headed...and you think things thru from all angles.

[quackaddict]

instead of completely skipping the begining of December and the begining of February, which is when I always seem to see the most birds.

are you talking about here when that is downtime in the season? b/c if so, i'm pretty sure that has to do with no pressure during those times, not the weather

and all of this talk of weather still doesn't make a whole lot of sense when places like florida, mexico,(read all warm wintered places) have more birds than SC on a consistant basis. i'm not trying to say that weather doesn't have anything to do with migration, everyone knows that it does...but explain that riddle to me. why are there plenty of birds(comparitively speaking) right above us in NC and right below us in FL?

[DeltaDucks]

are you talking about here when that is downtime in the season? b/c if so, i'm pretty sure that has to do with no pressure during those times, not the weather

and all of this talk of weather still doesn't make a whole lot of sense when places like florida, mexico,(read all warm wintered places) have more birds than SC on a consistant basis. i'm not trying to say that weather doesn't have anything to do with migration, everyone knows that it does...but explain that riddle to me. why are there plenty of birds(comparitively speaking) right above us in NC and right below us in FL?

ding,ding,ding we have a winner!

cold weather, and lots of it, may bring us a few more mallards, but that is all.

[drwilly]

maybe where you hunt. If it gets really cold and freezes above us...nc va tn etc, we see increased numbers of just about everything except bwt which seem to pass through earlier.

[duckman88]

Quack, I am just saying that it seems to me that I always see more birds when I am scouting for the second split in the begining of December. Also if you look at migration histories most southern states will hit their peak around the first to second week of December.

As for Florida and NC, Florida has a lot more of certain types of birds. Mostly birds that forage a lot on grassy vegitation. Widgeon, and Divers. They also shoot mottled a mostly gulf coast bird and they shoot teal because of the warmer climate.

NC is just historically the end point for a lot of waterfowl's migrations. It doesn't get cold enough to ice up and push birds down and ducks will only migrate as far as they have to because the further they migrate the more energy it takes and for female waterfowl they need to arrive at the breeding grounds with the most energy they can.

[quackaddict]

Quack, I am just saying that it seems to me that I always see more birds when I am scouting for the second split in the begining of December. Also if you look at migration histories most southern states will hit their peak around the first to second week of December.

i still think that it's due to the pressure factor...

another thing about warm weather...look at La. they get plenty of big ducks(not like they used to though) and the weather is very similar to what it is here. i realize they are a different flyway/mississippi river/etc., etc. BUT you could argue that those birds could just as easy stay further north in AR and MO rather than fly on down to LA

[duckman88]

Yea, it very well could be related to pressure. I don't know for sure. I will look into it and see what I find. I wonder what part philopatry and historical migration patterns have to do with it. BWT fly to South America, Scaup fly to Cuba. So I don't know. I will find out though.