Rabbit Sheriff

**trailertrash** · 04-29-2009, 07:30 PM

His parents should have known the law and he should have been made to have a life jacket on. At that age stupid things happen... I once was that age, I know. Even if it's not the law he needs to have one on for safety. Second, the trolling motor... his parents should also know the law about this. If you live on the lake and you take part in fishing from that lake or any other body of water you need to know the rules. I don't have any children that age now but my 16 year old daughter had a PFD on at all times until last year. Yes she could swim but it's the fact that you never know what is going to happen.

The trolling motor ticket should stand... the PFD ticket needs to be by the law. If the kid was in the wrong then that ticket also needs to stand.

I would much rather my child bring me home a ticket and a lesson learned than for the GW to bring me home a body bag.

**btduckcall** · 04-29-2009, 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by trailertrash

His parents should have known the law and he should have been made to have a life jacket on. At that age stupid things happen... I once was that age, I know. Even if it's not the law he needs to have one on for safety. Second, the trolling motor... his parents should also know the law about this. If you live on the lake and you take part in fishing from that lake or any other body of water you need to know the rules. I don't have any children that age now but my 16 year old daughter had a PFD on at all times until last year. Yes she could swim but it's the fact that you never know what is going to happen.

The trolling motor ticket should stand... the PFD ticket needs to be by the law. If the kid was in the wrong then that ticket also needs to stand.

I would much rather my child bring me home a ticket and a lesson learned than for the GW to bring me home a body bag.

was thinking the same thing there TT as far as the body bag, just as he has to do his job in safe way so do leo's they are not there to give anyone a hard time but to try and save

**trailertrash** · 04-29-2009, 07:55 PM

I have put several in a body bag. It's not a good feeling. It gets even worse when the family shows up.

**LeeCountyMudMarshall** · 04-29-2009, 08:35 PM

TT you hit the nail on the head on that one I have worked a few drownings myself and it is not a good feeling sorry that the boys got a ticket but everyone has a job to do. Everyone can make judgements on what should be done but unless you are out there and know all of the facts its hard to pass judgement and one the flip side if the young men would have been checked and let go and something bad would have happen do you know how much trouble that officer could have been in everyone would be complaining that he or she is not doing there job.

**b-stick** · 04-29-2009, 08:39 PM

i havent been in this convo but been reading it..had a similar experience when i was younger got a ticket for no registration i didnt know..went to court and the GW dropped my ticket and just told me to make sure my grandpa gets the boat registerd..it was a small jon boat with a trollin motor....i wouldnt call anyone therefore could make it worse on him instead of teaching him a lesson it will scare him shitless and he wont wanna fish again..id let it get settled in court.let the judge make the decision once again we pay them to protect us and that is what he was doing..

carry on.

**CreekGeek** · 04-29-2009, 08:44 PM

It seems that in the last couple of years, there has been less discretion and more tickets. I have heard lots of stories in the last two or so years that really make you question what the goals of the tickets are. I'd like to see the officers discretion come into play more, much like it used to be. But I guess nothing is like it used to be. As the general public becomes larger, there is less familiarity with the user groups and therefore less wiggle room at the point of contact.

**trailertrash** · 04-29-2009, 08:46 PM

I pulled one out the water probably 15 years ago. He was probably 40 years old and fishing with a buddy of about the same age. They flipped the boat and he got twisted up in fishing line and went down. The water was cold that day, probably 40's since it was in the winter. The second guy was able to tell us right where they were when they flipped. We found him in about 8 feet of water right on the bottom. Got him to the bank and he had moss all in his mouth. We cleaned him out and started CPR. We got him back and he lived for about a week until his kidneys and other organs started shuting down. He was down probably 15 minutes before we got there. In EMS a person is not dead until they are warm and dead.

It will make you think twice when your in a boat. That could happen to any one of us at anytime. I hope they learned a lesson even if it does cost them a little money.

**Turk 182** · 04-29-2009, 09:17 PM

I don't believe this story. If they wrote a 13 or 14 year old a ticket they'd get a royal @$$ chewing from above.

**Chuck the Duck Slayer** · 04-29-2009, 09:18 PM

To the OP tell your nephew to take the trolling motor off the boat use paddles from now on and dont worry about registration. In fact I would take the TM into court with me and tell the judge the TM wont be going back on the boat. Have a few anchors in the boat just in case.

Have 1 more lifejacket than people in the boat and dont worry about it.

tradorion · 04-29-2009, 09:37 PM

OK-- Now i have read all three pages of this and will toss my hat into the ring on a number of levels.

The very first thing that comes to my mind is ain't it amazing how quickly people come to full judgement simply based on ONE part of ONE side of this story... DAMN YA'll over and over this same issue comes to light and folks have to back pedal...

I am a member of both the "thin blue line" and more specifically the "thin green line"-- having said that when i have found fellow officers OR MYSELF to be in the worng i have tried to help correct that error to the benefit of the public and the education of us officers. We are only human and can indeed make mistakes. HOWEVER- what i see here is an incomplete story where fingers are immediately pointed regardless of accuracy.

LICENSE SALES IN SC- whichever rocket surgeon or brain scientist pointed out that they think DNR ticket numbers are the reason license sales are falling needs to look at national trends in hunting and fishing as well as the changing demographic in SC. Is there more than one person out there who has had a bad experience with a GW? YESSIR. Is there someone out there who will never hunt or fish again based on this negative event?? MAYBE. HOWEVER- the overall drop in sales is not based on GW's doing there job and whoever used this as their argument let me say simply YOU ARE AN IDIOT. Simple and Direct.

TICKETS AND DISCRETION- First what is "discretion"?? Officers are constantly called on to used it but it is sorta like ethics... my version of discretion is different from the next officers... The key i find is that the "mean" officers are often the most fair. They simply apply the law and do not try to make many judgement calls they leave that to the judge or the jury.

As for increasing ticket numbers in recent years- i would say that is very possible- but i don't see it as a lack of discretion but a shift in enforcement priorities to better protect limited resources from unlimited encroachment or based on changing laws and standars. EXAMPLE- Drew's Law... until a little boy died in a boating accident there was next to nothing that a drunk boater could be charged with. The death of that child and the efforts of his parents gave GW's a detailed tool to pursue Boating Under the Influence (BUI) and we do indeed pursue the hell out of it- why?? NOT to be dicks- but to have less dead people on the water... NOW PLEASE TELL ME what discretion you want me to use when dealing with a drunk who is operating a boat on the waters of SC....

NOW ON TO THE MAIN EVENT---

SCSwitchback- I initially said feel free to PM me but I'd rather you brought the rest of the story out in the open for the rest of the board and my own education.

First- Were they white tickets or yellow (as in courtesy summons or warnings) ?? If they were warnings then engage your brain before you open your mouth WARNINGS are educational without being costly- SUMMONS are educational with a bit of sting b/c most of us don't learn the lesson unless it costs us a bit.

Second- 14yrs of age goes to family court not magistrates in my general experience... i have yet to see a 14yrs old get a hard copy ticket from a GW. I am with Turk... unless there were some weird circumstances my chain-of-command would roast my nutz if i ticketed a 14yr old.

Third- Hard to write a ticket for something that is not against the law- such as being 14 w/out the lifejacket on... no law was broken if the facts are as you have presented them... that would be what your day in court is for if indeed there is a court date.

Fourth- back to the issue of giving a 14yr old a ticket again- but the registration thing... well, it is what they call a rule of thumb to have a boat registered if operating it on the waters of the state.

FINALLY- it IS NOT the parents choice to say whether the child may or may not obey or disobey a law... or rather it is their choice to allow the child to disobey any law but the parents mey find it costly. Either interms of $$ or in terms of a lost child.

As someone who has pulled more than one dead body off the bottom and boated my share of victims after they floated I would ask that you refrain from telling me your thoughts on what is and is not important for officers to enforce. Of any boating law on the books the law regarding PFD's is in my opinion the most vital one.

I'll be waiting for your answers. Please do follow up with the type ticket and any further information you may have to paint a clearer picture.

tradorion · 04-29-2009, 11:25 PM

CreekGeek- just re-read this thread and you made a VERY GOOD point... "back in the day" the local GW knew his local folks inside and out and it left alot more room for personal interaction and knowledge of who the "violators" were versus the "oooopsies".

That level of personal interaction is not possible in most areas in SC in this day and age. Where it is still viable it is indeed a real blessing- for the public AND the GW!!

**b-stick** · 04-29-2009, 11:56 PM

im started to to like ya trad..your ok in my book afterall bwhaha

now if you can do something about them damn poachers on my place we are in good shape..i need you to call me tomorrow about that anyways

tradorion · 04-30-2009, 09:04 AM

SCSwitchback- that was indeed a sincere request by me (amongst others) for further information as to what occurred with this young person and the game warden... i want the rest of the story and i want the details.

Feel free to PM me the name of the officer/location of offense and I will gladly find out if it is a court case or a warning ticket and if it is indeed a court case ask for further information post-adjudication...

**Chuck the Duck Slayer** · 04-30-2009, 09:20 AM

SCSwitchback----- Trad is trying to help you out if you would send him a PM it would go a long way. Just my opinion and it really means nothing but converse with Trad and he will do what he can for you.

tradorion · 04-30-2009, 09:41 AM

No- I will not say i am trying to help him out. I just think that one side of the story was given in a very slanted light and I want the rest of the story.

I am NOT saying that it MIGHT have occurred as it is written- even GW's don't always get it right- but based on what I see in his story there is far more in my opinion than is being told and I think if he is going to call a "rabbit sheriff" out then he had better be ready to dance til the music ends.

**cajunwannabe** · 04-30-2009, 10:02 AM

ALWAYS "two sides to every story and then there's the truth".

**Chuck the Duck Slayer** · 04-30-2009, 10:20 AM

Trad-- I said you would try and help him out. I didnt say you would help with the tickets but educating would be a form of helping out. You ASSumed I was referring to the tickets when I said helping out. I know you are a morally upstanding GW who will not bend nor break your own personal and professional ethics when it comes to your job. You have helped numerous people out on this site just by educating them as well as offered local knowledge of where game are located as well as how to approach said game animal.

Knowledge is power

**SCSwitchback** · 04-30-2009, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by tradorion

OK-- Now i have read all three pages of this and will toss my hat into the ring on a number of levels.

The very first thing that comes to my mind is ain't it amazing how quickly people come to full judgement simply based on ONE part of ONE side of this story... DAMN YA'll over and over this same issue comes to light and folks have to back pedal...

I am a member of both the "thin blue line" and more specifically the "thin green line"-- having said that when i have found fellow officers OR MYSELF to be in the worng i have tried to help correct that error to the benefit of the public and the education of us officers. We are only human and can indeed make mistakes. HOWEVER- what i see here is an incomplete story where fingers are immediately pointed regardless of accuracy.

LICENSE SALES IN SC- whichever rocket surgeon or brain scientist pointed out that they think DNR ticket numbers are the reason license sales are falling needs to look at national trends in hunting and fishing as well as the changing demographic in SC. Is there more than one person out there who has had a bad experience with a GW? YESSIR. Is there someone out there who will never hunt or fish again based on this negative event?? MAYBE. HOWEVER- the overall drop in sales is not based on GW's doing there job and whoever used this as their argument let me say simply YOU ARE AN IDIOT. Simple and Direct.

TICKETS AND DISCRETION- First what is "discretion"?? Officers are constantly called on to used it but it is sorta like ethics... my version of discretion is different from the next officers... The key i find is that the "mean" officers are often the most fair. They simply apply the law and do not try to make many judgement calls they leave that to the judge or the jury.

As for increasing ticket numbers in recent years- i would say that is very possible- but i don't see it as a lack of discretion but a shift in enforcement priorities to better protect limited resources from unlimited encroachment or based on changing laws and standars. EXAMPLE- Drew's Law... until a little boy died in a boating accident there was next to nothing that a drunk boater could be charged with. The death of that child and the efforts of his parents gave GW's a detailed tool to pursue Boating Under the Influence (BUI) and we do indeed pursue the hell out of it- why?? NOT to be dicks- but to have less dead people on the water... NOW PLEASE TELL ME what discretion you want me to use when dealing with a drunk who is operating a boat on the waters of SC....

NOW ON TO THE MAIN EVENT---

SCSwitchback- I initially said feel free to PM me but I'd rather you brought the rest of the story out in the open for the rest of the board and my own education.

First- Were they white tickets or yellow (as in courtesy summons or warnings) ?? If they were warnings then engage your brain before you open your mouth WARNINGS are educational without being costly- SUMMONS are educational with a bit of sting b/c most of us don't learn the lesson unless it costs us a bit.

Second- 14yrs of age goes to family court not magistrates in my general experience... i have yet to see a 14yrs old get a hard copy ticket from a GW. I am with Turk... unless there were some weird circumstances my chain-of-command would roast my nutz if i ticketed a 14yr old.

Third- Hard to write a ticket for something that is not against the law- such as being 14 w/out the lifejacket on... no law was broken if the facts are as you have presented them... that would be what your day in court is for if indeed there is a court date.

Fourth- back to the issue of giving a 14yr old a ticket again- but the registration thing... well, it is what they call a rule of thumb to have a boat registered if operating it on the waters of the state.

FINALLY- it IS NOT the parents choice to say whether the child may or may not obey or disobey a law... or rather it is their choice to allow the child to disobey any law but the parents mey find it costly. Either interms of $$ or in terms of a lost child.

As someone who has pulled more than one dead body off the bottom and boated my share of victims after they floated I would ask that you refrain from telling me your thoughts on what is and is not important for officers to enforce. Of any boating law on the books the law regarding PFD's is in my opinion the most vital one.

I'll be waiting for your answers. Please do follow up with the type ticket and any further information you may have to paint a clearer picture.

Trad, sorry it took me so long to respond...I had to get a little work done this morning.

First off I want to go on record as apologizing for spouting off so quickly. It turns out one of the boys in the boat was under 12. It appears that my nephew got the ticket even though he's over 12, apparently because he was in control of the boat. The fact that I disagree with this law, among many others, doesn't change the fact that it's the law. I never said before that they hadn't broken the law....my beef was that that particular GW, and many others, could handle situations a little better, IMO.

Now, the biggest problem I have with this situation, and many others, was addressed by CreekGeek earlier. It seems that more and more tickets are being written than ever before (I can speculate on why I think this is). This is surely NOT because more laws are being broken. For some reason, you can't do anything in the outdoors anymore with out getting in some kind of trouble. Laws are constantly being changed, and tickets are constantly being written to honest law-abiding people. You get on the lake one day and realize your fire extinguisher is empty, you better get your checkbook out. Or, you lose your boat keys that had the whistle on them......hell, I can't go fishing today. It's nonsense. There are so many laws we have to follow in the name of safety, that don't keep anyone safe. Like I said before, if my boat sinks, I'm not blowing a whistle. If it catches on fire, I'm jumping out. I had a GW on Parr chew my ass for my stickers being too far back on my boat by 1 ft. Give me a break. Do you see where I'm going with this? All this crap takes the fun out of it, especially when you have to worry about getting ticketed. If you do get a ticket, you're pissed off for a month about it. Sometimes it's not worth it any more.

Not only did these boys get a ticket for the life jacket issue, but also for the registrations. I'm sure they're all fired up now about going fishing. It would cost them and their parents less to go smoke a bowl or break into somebodies house.

About three weeks ago, I was catching some bass and my wife wanted to go out there with me for a little while. I caught 6 or 7, and let her reel one in. She made a few casts, adn who shows up? She got a ticket for not having a license. So what....I'm not raising hell about that. I knew she could get a ticket before she started fishing and was prepared to pay it...no big deal. It's different with the kids though. Let them have a good time doing something that's constructive and keeping them out of trouble. Send them home for the day and tell them to get the boat registered....you don't have to charge them money.

Now I do agree with the statement you made about GameWardens knowing people "back in the day." When I started fishing I knew a particualar gw on Murray pretty well. He never checked me....he'd pull up, ask if I was catching any, and tell me where I could catch some. He knew I wasn't breaking any laws. Nowadays, there are more people and it's hard to tell if you're dealing with a habitual offender or someone who had a bad day. I understand that, and agree with you on that point.

I do disagree with you, however, about the interest in our sports. When people new to fishing and hunting, especially kids, get in trouble for something so minor, it does leave a bad taste in their mouth. I know plenty of people that have quit dove hunting and duck hunting because there are too many restrictions. In most of these cases, people have quit dove hunting because they can't afford it...me included.

Again, I sincerely apologize for not having my ducks in a row before shooting off at the mouth. My complaints are just as much for the ones that make the laws as the ones who enforce them.