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Thread: I Hope You Have a Crystal Ball

  1. #1
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    Default I Hope You Have a Crystal Ball

    So here are a list of the new rules. There are all sorts of other bad news in this. The only hope is that the courts throw this out due to rule #4. I dont know how you are supposed to be able to determine what someone has in mind to do with a gun when they buy, unless they out right tell you they plan to commit a mass shooting, or hold up a bank!!! Now remember these rules now pertain to anyone who sells a gun, not just a FFL. If you do intend on selling a gun you better have a FFL, and you better do a NICS background check. At least for now. I'm curious as to how this plays out with those with CWP's. The rule says every transaction now has to have a NICS back ground check. So how will this play out???

    They supposedly clarified what you do as a FFL when you transfer to your self or to another FFL. Looks like they just muddied the water??

    Last but not least, they are begging for more money so they can track from production to a crime, and a new data base due to it being so "unwieldy", and they need more full time employees??? Let me translate, they are openly admitting they plan on tracking guns in a manner in direct conflict to which they promised to do when the Brady act passed. They were never supposed to be able to track guns in real time and have a registry. Yet, they are openly telling you they want to do it, and at least the system is some what working. Currently they are amassing their "registry" by piece milling out of business records with Form 3's to semi keep track of where guns are. Problem with this is private sale foil them knowing for sure where the gun resides. So now you have a gun retrieved at a crime scene. serial# is run back through all form3's they then can back track which FFL it went through by calling each FFL, at least till the last one sold it to a person that filled out a 4473. If that person sells it to a person in a private transaction, and that person sells it and so on, there is no way of determining who had the gun last. By having a 4473 every time the gun changes hands they know exactly who has it, and if they do what they have been doing currently during inspections (taking pics of dealers books,) they would have a real time knowledge of where the fire arm is in real time. If you wonder why that is bad, it leads to confiscation.

    https://www.atf.gov/firearms/final-r...ealer-firearms

    This final rule incorporates BSCA’s definitions of “predominantly earn a profit” and “terrorism,” and amends the regulatory definitions of “engaged in the business as a dealer other than a gunsmith or pawnbroker” and “principal objective of livelihood and profit” to ensure each conforms with the BSCA’s statutory changes and can be relied upon by the public.

    The final rule clarifies when a person is “engaged in the business” as a dealer in firearms at wholesale or retail by:

    1clarifying the definition of “dealer,” and defining the terms “purchase,” “sale,” and “something of value” as they apply to dealers;

    2adding definitions for the term “personal collection (or personal collection of firearms, or personal firearms collection),” and for “responsible person”;

    3setting forth conduct that is presumed to constitute “engaging in the business” of dealing in firearms, and presumed to demonstrate the intent to “predominantly earn a profit” from the sale or disposition of firearms, absent reliable evidence to the contrary, in civil and administrative proceedings;

    4clarifying that the intent to “predominantly earn a profit” does not require the person to have received pecuniary gain, and that intent does not have to be shown when a person purchases or sells a firearm for criminal or terrorism purposes;

    5clarifying the circumstances when a person would not be presumed to engaged in the business of dealing in firearms, including as an auctioneer, or when purchasing firearms for, and selling firearms from, a personal collection;

    6addressing the procedures former licensees, and responsible persons acting on behalf of such licensees, must follow when they liquidate business inventory upon revocation or other termination of their license; and

    7clarifying that licensees must follow the verification and recordkeeping procedures in 27 CFR 478.94 and Subpart H, rather than using an ATF Form 4473 when firearms are transferred to other licensees, including transfers by a licensed sole proprietor to that person’s personal collection.
    Yup, he's crazy...


    like a fox. The dude may be coming in a little too hard and crazy but 90% of everything he says is correct.

    Sort of like Toof. But way smarter.
    ~Scatter Shot

  2. #2
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    I tried to call you earlier to get your take on a couple sections. Will circle back later...

  3. #3
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    466 pages if you want to read the whole thing.

    I'm getting all sorts of information from other FFL's and lawyers at the moment. Got a call into the ATF as well. I suspect they dont know yet either. It doesn't go into effect till may 10th.

    https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regula...earms/download
    Yup, he's crazy...


    like a fox. The dude may be coming in a little too hard and crazy but 90% of everything he says is correct.

    Sort of like Toof. But way smarter.
    ~Scatter Shot

  4. #4
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    The last article I read on this (last week) was that while obviously the ATF's goal is to eventually include all private sellers, this rule itself would only apply (assuming the ATF wins the first lawsuits) to those who are determined/proven to be selling more than "just occasionally from a private collection", etc. What is it that makes you believe it will include every private seller, including sales here in the TP?
    .
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    "Keep your powder dry, Boys!"
    ~ George Washington

    "If I understood everything I said I'd be a genius." ~ 'Unknown'

  5. #5
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    Yup, he's crazy...


    like a fox. The dude may be coming in a little too hard and crazy but 90% of everything he says is correct.

    Sort of like Toof. But way smarter.
    ~Scatter Shot

  6. #6
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    SW338, thanks for posting this video. I was about to do the same and recant my comment above. I’ve listened to four different legal videos this week and each has clarified and reinforced the fact that unless SCOTUS (or Congress?) rules this all as unconstitutional BS (like it should be), we are screwed as private sellers. And the crap wording differentiating a ‘collection’ vs ‘arms for self-defense’ is bound to mess up a lot of people.

    The fact that nobody here has taken an interest in the Biden/ATF circle-jerk is both surprising and concerning.
    Last edited by WoodieSC; 04-20-2024 at 09:09 AM.
    .
    Foothills Golden Retriever Rescue
    .
    "Keep your powder dry, Boys!"
    ~ George Washington

    "If I understood everything I said I'd be a genius." ~ 'Unknown'

  7. #7
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    I get called crazy and conspiracy theorist when I do along with many don’t want my advice on these matters.

    Which Is funny being last time I was walking out of federal court a atf agent told his colleagues I had forgot more about their own rules than they would ever know especially NFA. I’ll leave it there.
    Yup, he's crazy...


    like a fox. The dude may be coming in a little too hard and crazy but 90% of everything he says is correct.

    Sort of like Toof. But way smarter.
    ~Scatter Shot

  8. #8
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    They can’t even stop people selling drugs how can they hope to stop people making private sales.

  9. #9
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    Very simple. One is a threat to Uncle Brosey's nephew's friends. This rule enables them to do so, in various ways.

    When there is a serious detriment to our society like cancer or abortion they are silent. Abortion kills more people every year than any other cause, and not even close. Cancer affects us all. I dont recall the .gov running out to help with that.

    Let something like drugs or dare I even say the C word, and they will pull out all stops to make sure everyone not only gets something, but is forced too.

    Point being when "they" want to do something they will, and the constitution and your opinion be damned.
    Last edited by Silentweapon338; 04-21-2024 at 12:58 PM.
    Yup, he's crazy...


    like a fox. The dude may be coming in a little too hard and crazy but 90% of everything he says is correct.

    Sort of like Toof. But way smarter.
    ~Scatter Shot

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentweapon338 View Post
    Very simple. One is threat to Uncle Brosey's nephew's friends. The other enables them.

    When there is a serious detriment to our society like cancer or abortion they are silent. Abortion kills more people every year than any other cause, and not even close. Cancer affects us all. I dont recall the .gov running out to help that.

    Let something like drugs or dare I even say the C word and they will pull out all stops to make sure everyone not only gets something but is forced too.

    Point being when "they" want to do something they will.
    Prohibition has never worked. Didn’t with alcohol, drugs, and even abortion. It won’t with guns either. It may leave only those with natharious intentions armed.

  11. #11
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    You would have to be a damned fool to sell a gun without an FFL until this is resolved through the courts. I am waiting for a couple more legal opinions tomorrow before we shut it down here...

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by centurian View Post
    Prohibition has never worked. Didn’t with alcohol, drugs, and even abortion. It won’t with guns either. It may leave only those with natharious intentions armed.
    You're not tracking here. Every gun when made is registered from the get go once it is made. (minus if you make your own gun, but if you sell that it now your going to be a person engaged in for profit and will have to serialize it and form 2 it.) Illegal drugs and alcohol are not.

    So manufacture x makes a AR15 sells it to big box store A. They then sell It to a local FFL, they sell it too you. Every time that happens there is a paper trail. Under this rule if you sell that gun with out filling out a 4473 and are not a FFL or if you are you are going to be charged with a Felony. How could that happen? The easy way is that gun turns up in a crime and you didn't fill out a 4473. There are a plenty of other ways for them to find out, especially if they get their new "system"

    You can bet they are going to scour online sites like AR15.com, other sites especially hunting sites like ours that offer private sales. It will be happy hunting for agents and they will get both parties in the sale, and I hate to see this. The ambiguous wording could even put the owner of this site in peril even though he isnt engaged in the actual sale. Sometimes it is best not to be first. Let this play out and see how it is going to go. I hope none of us are the test case. The feds have all the money and all the time. If you have never seen what they can do to you even though you may be right is disgusting. You dont want to find your self in that position.


    Here is another video.


    Last edited by Silentweapon338; 04-21-2024 at 12:59 PM.
    Yup, he's crazy...


    like a fox. The dude may be coming in a little too hard and crazy but 90% of everything he says is correct.

    Sort of like Toof. But way smarter.
    ~Scatter Shot

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by JABIII View Post
    You would have to be a damned fool to sell a gun without an FFL until this is resolved through the courts. I am waiting for a couple more legal opinions tomorrow before we shut it down here...
    JAB, this rule won’t take legal effect until 30 days after it was officially entered into the Federal Register, which I believe will put it about May 10, 2024. That gives us about 2 - 2-1/2 weeks to buy or sell.

    Hopefully this whole ball of garbage will get to SCOTUS in short order.
    .
    Foothills Golden Retriever Rescue
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    "Keep your powder dry, Boys!"
    ~ George Washington

    "If I understood everything I said I'd be a genius." ~ 'Unknown'

  14. #14
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    Plenty of time left to buy my AR or G42 outta the TP.

    I have been slack about putting them on Armslist. Seems like Armslist will be a ghost town very soon...

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