Upper Chattooga River in Danger!

[Duck Nitz]

If any of you trout bums on here are aware of a group of kayakers that are demanding access to the Upper Chatooga (GA, NC, SC), you should know that the time is now to fight this. If the ban is lifted, anyone short of a commercial guide service can get an unmotorized boat or tube onto the upper stretch.

I don't know the specifics yet, but a friend who fishes that stretch of the river is extremely pissed that a very small group of kayakers are spending a considerable amount of money and flexing political favors to get a 30 year old ban on boating the Upper Chattooga lifted. Today (July 10) there was a public hearing to get all the stakeholders a chance to voice their opinion. If anyone has any relevant information on this issue please post it here. Kayakers have plenty of room elsewhere and do not need access to this part of the river.

[mudminnow]

This has been a battle for over ten years and the kayakers have worked their butts off while the fishermen have sat on their butts. Honestly all we can hope for now is a good compromise. The river levels that are good for kayaking are too high for trout fishing, so the Forest service will only open the section up too boaters at a certain water level. I would hate to see kayakers up their, but it is their tax money too that is paying to protect the lands we get to fish on so they may have a point. What they should do is close the campgrounds around burrells ford to cut down on the trash. They should allow camping a mile or more upstream or downstream from all access points if they really want to keep the chattooga "wild and scenic".

[Duck Nitz]

After the kayakers will follow the tubers. With the tubers will come the garbage. I suppose its only a matter of time before they open it up to commercial rafting and stuff. Taxes or no, the upper stretch needs to be kept off limits to boaters. It is a fishery first and foremost. There is a meeting in Walhalla this Saturday to voice concerns and opinions.

[mudminnow]

Have you seen the upper chattooga? It is class III-V rapids that would honestly kill tubers. No tubers are going to be on it. THere is already trash all over the place up there from campers and fishermen that don't pick up their salmon egg cans. The only places i fish the upper chattooga now is to hike at least 3 to four miles away from burrels...even big bend gets trashed. I love the river and have a spent a large amount of my 22 years on that river. It is where i learned to kayak and is where i learned to catch wild trout. I like the regulations the way they are now but i think with a well developed non commercial plan to allow kayakers above 28 i could be happy

[WhitewaterDuck]

You fuckers have no idea what you speak of. First of all, mudminnow is right. It is class V whitewater that would kill any tuber or non expert kayaker. I am an expert kayaker very knowledgable about the Chatooga, so I will address this. Overflow creek is the other fork of the upper stretches of the Chatooga. It has been open to boating forever, and there are no conflicts b/t boaters and fishermen there. The only time that the river is high enough to run, the water is too high for fishing. I mean, you could work your way along the bank and try, but you won't catch anything. No one fishes that stretch at the lower boatable flows, and you surely can not wade in there when it is runnning. The ban is illegal and has been deemed so by a federal court, but they are letting us work it out. There will be a compromise reached, and we will all realize that it was much ado about nothing. There are some landowners who think that the river in front of the land that they are fortunate enough to own is theirs, and they so not want people intruding on their river. These will likely be the only ones who see an "adverse" effect of boating on the river. No rafts can or would navigate that stretch of river, and only the very best boaters who live close enough to catch it on big flows would be there running it. It will be very similar to overflow creek; the most people I've seen on there in one day is about twenty five, and that was a big day. This is all about people without knowledge of what boating is about having a knee jerk reaction not unlike the original post here. The river is wild and senic and should be able to be enjoyed by everyone who pays taxes to protect it whether it be enjoying the fishing or the whitewater. BTW, I will do both there. In the meantime, a small group of fishermen will beat their chests speaing of the damage boating will do while 90% of the fishermen there will litter the banks with corn and beer cans. Kayakers are the single most responsible group of outdoor enthusiasts I've ever been involved with, and will do more and put more money into protecting and improving that stretch of river than the fishermen ever thought about doing. Get your facts straight before sending out the panic cry chicken little.

[WhitewaterDuck]

BTW, banning kayaking on that stretch of river is no different than banning duck hunting on the lakes of SC because landowners fear that it will mess up the fishing...or skiing etc. We are treading on dangerous ground when setting the precidence that one group of resource users can establish a ban on the other depending on the politics of the region. Think about it. The next time this happens, you might find yourself cut off from your hunting spots or fishing holes for that matter.

[Duck Nitz]

Whatever there, CheeseWhiz. Whenever you "expert kayakers" get stuck on that upper stretch get injured, stranded, or whatever and the Oconee/Pickens ERT has to spend $10000.00 in taxpayer funds to haul your ass out of there on a helicopter, who should we send the bill to? You? You're the expert! That's funny..."Expert Kayaker" LOL

[CAMO SNOB]

[img]graemlins/lol.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/rofl.gif[/img] I concur [img]graemlins/rofl.gif[/img]

[mudminnow]

good argument duck nitz, but tell me the last time an expert kayaker has died on the chattooga river?...The main group of people that die on rivers in general are inexperienced boaters and people that can't swim or don't wear life jackets, or try to swim across a river above a class IV rapid. One of the toughest sections in the southeast, the narrows of the green, is fairly remote and only one person has died on it in the past 10 years that i know of. That argument has been put down by the whitewater community so we got to find a better one. I don't think we can so we may have to get over it.

[Duck Nitz]

THe people who are pursuing this bullshit are wealthy little lawyers and doctors who have a quest: to get the ban lifted on the upper section for no other reason other than to say they won their lawsuit.

THese whitewater people are relatively wealthy people who have nothing better to do than flex their wallets and political favors to say "We did it". This will set a precedent for other whitewater areas where kayakers are banned like parts of the Yellowstone River. I have credible sources who say that is their eventual aim.

BOttom line is this:
THey do not need to kayak this water, they have plenty of water around to shoot. It needs to stay unmolested by paddlers.


And for the love of God, would someone please tell me what constitutes being an "Expert Paddler"?? How many credit hours does it take to get that designation? Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[CAMO SNOB]

You have to become an paddling/dick sucking apprentice first... [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

"She's served out the term of her paddling apprenticeship. She's an expert, and she knows it.

You can be one, too. 'Nuff said. "


"Expert"LINK

This article has convinced me that any dip shit with a pair a nuts(or not as stated above) and half a brain ,or less, is an expert paddler... It's a call to arms.

[Duck Nitz]

Well that settles it! Thanks CS.

[WhitewaterDuck]

Nitz, you have no idea who the F I am or what my paddeling ability is. I run class 5 whitewater rivers such as the Green, NFFB, Overflow Creek, etc which are all very similar and in many cases more difficult than the upper Chatooga. When paddelers have died on the Chatooga before, we boaters are the ones who end up extracting the bodies free of charge; we wouldn't think of doing anything but doing the right thing. Oconee county EMS and their "wwiftwater rescue team" is a joke, and has no idea what they are doing when it comes to swiftwater rescue. BTW more than 98% of the deaths on the Chatooga have been the result of wading accidents and non-commercial raft trips by people who vastly underestimated the power and difficulty of the river or who decided to get plowed and float down it in tubes. Very few kayakers have died on the Chatooga, and when they do, we extract our own. Oconee EMS runs up there and starts flinging grappeling hooks and ropes in the rapids resulting in lost hazzards; I hope they never show up to a rescue ever again. BTW on the comparable sections of Chatooga headwaters (Overflow) no kayaker has ever died as opposed to many unfortunate, inexperienced boaters on the very tame and easy section III. The creator of this site will vouch for my expert abilities as will anyone on here who knows me, so bashing my abilities on whitewater when you know nothing about me, kayaking, or the Chatooga just proves my original point; you, and people like you like to jump on any ole bandwagon rolling your direction without having the foggiest understanding of the facts. Your post and this issue is nothing more than a self serving bunch of rhetoric based on less than half truths; kind of reminds me of PETA. Anyone doubting my numbers and facts can go to www.americanwhitewater.org and click on safety then accident reports then georgia then Chatooga to view all the deaths and near misses and the circumstances surrounding each accident and body recovery. All I'm saying is get your facts straight before getting behind some hairball argument designed to set precedence regarding restriction of public access to groups of outdoorsmen...any outdoorsmen. Like I said earlier, you may very well find yourself being banned from hunting somewhere when a majority of non-hunters use this ruling to keep you out. It is totally BS, and it is illegal.

[WhitewaterDuck]

Holy shit! You think that the majority of kayakers are rich? You really dont have a fucking clue do you bud? The more you type the more you prove that you are a dumbass who pulls stories from your fantasy world to support your point of view. BTW, do you consider yourself an expert duck hunter? The majority of kayakers have average to below average incomes; the flyfishermen fighting this consist of wealthy landowners on the Chatooga and fishermen who have more invested in their flyfishing rod and reel than any kayaker has invested in his boat, paddle, gear, etc. After reading your last post, it is obvious that I'm arguing with someone with the mentality of an adolescent; you will make up stories to back your argument, and you will resort to "cut downs" to divert attention from the fact that you are clueless. Its like mudminnow said earlier, your lame ass arguments have systematically been proven to be total BS many times over during the last two years' debates, and now that the truth has been exposed, you and the fishermen will have to share the water. Get over it.

[Tater]

Hmmmm, while I have fly fished before flyrods don't go "BANG" so they don't mean that much to me; and while I have kayaked before kayaks are for skinny people so kayaks don't mean that much to me either. With that said I hereby appoint myself as impartial mediator and declare Advantage WhitewaterDuck (or cheesewiz, as the case may be).

[Duck Nitz]

You have your opinions there WWD, and that is all they are. Try to remember that. I am raising the issue to discuss my stance and express MY opinion, and you represent the other side of that. How in the world do you take personal offense from what I have said? Defend your position and be careful about how you use the term 'expert'.

I think you regard the river as an amusement park. That is my opinion.

Your posts smack of entitlement and you lean heavily on the fact that you're a 'pro'. Are you kidding? That may matter to you but it has nothing to do with the preserving a river that has a boating ban in place for a very good reason. Next.

[Tater]

Originally posted by Duck Nitz:
That may matter to you but it has nothing to do with the preserving a river that has a boating ban in place for a very good reason.

Impartial mediator needs to know what that "very good reason" is before any further judgements will be passed.

[Candor]

I am very much about removing govt. restrictions. But am curious why the ban was in place originally. Is it a "fragile" eco system or was it done for the protection of paddlers who were making mistakes or over rating their own abilities? If so is their some sort of qualification system that could realistically rate someone as "expert" or capable of running Class V rapids and this portion could be restricted to those folks?
The "govt" has restrictions on lake Murray that are NOT about safety...ie the 300 yd buffer to dwellings.

Most paddlers I know are wealthy, earthy types that are very aware of the impact they make on a river. But there is the younger nuevo paddlers that are romanced by the kayaking image that give paddlers a bad name.

I do agree with Mudminnow that paddlers are more organized than fisherman...although fisherman have IMO been stewards of our waterways for much much longer.

[CAMO SNOB]

Originally posted by Candor:
is their some sort of qualification system that could realistically rate someone as "expert" or capable of running Class V rapids

Yes there is a such rating ... A fucking Olympic GOLD medal [img]graemlins/fu2.gif[/img]

It matters not to me what happens because I have never fished there, but in the fight of fishing Vs. "paddling" their is no doubt what side I am own. It may be unjust that the self proclaimed experts can't run their kayaks down the river, but I don't give a shit. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Sportin' Woodies]

been down dat river about 5 or 6 times, and cant ever recall meeting another boater who had any type of mentality other than tree hugger.

1 or 2 times i didnt even see another yaker