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Thread: Lead Free Rifle Ammo...

  1. #1
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    Default Lead Free Rifle Ammo...

    As a general rule the more an emotional mob tries to push me in a particular direction the more I resist. The topic of "lead by-catch" and killing of scavengers/raptors via lead infused gut piles leaves me wondering how big a deal this really is.

    However I'm hearing the non lead copper rifle ammo is out performing traditional lead rounds.

    Has anyone made the switch? And if so why and how has the transition been?

    What's the future for lead/toxic shot in general?

  2. #2
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    I have some Barnes TTSX we can load up for your favorite rifle.

    Just gotta clear a path to get to the bench.
    I don't need my name in the marquee lights....

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simple Man View Post
    I have some Barnes TTSX we can load up for your favorite rifle.

    Just gotta clear a path to get to the bench.
    See you in May of '23 then.

  4. #4
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    A friend of mine who is in our clays club is the director of the birds of prey center. He tells me that birds have a very low tolerance for ingested lead. It stays in their gizzard and gets ground up. A wounded dove is probably more likely to survive the embedded birdshot than a hawk that eats him.

    I've wondered if the solid copper bullets might have the side effect of killing any tree that gets hit. I've heard that an easy way to surreptitiously kill a tree, like a neighbor's magnolia tree on your fence line that drops non-biodegradable leaves in your yard, is to drive a copper nail into it. Anybody know if copper is really that effective at killing trees?

    It would seem to me that non-lead bullets would not have as high a BC since they are lighter per volume. They might indeed be deadlier since they might have higher velocity and maybe more reliable expansion.

  5. #5
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    hard to beat a barnes TTSX. I shoot them in my 06 and 243. I still shoot lead in my 44 and 45/70's though
    "Eventually, all things merge into one, and a river runs through it. The river was cut by the world's great flood and runs over rocks from the basement of time. On some of the rocks are timeless raindrops. Under the rocks are the words, and some of the words are theirs.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn View Post
    As a general rule the more an emotional mob tries to push me in a particular direction the more I resist. The topic of "lead by-catch" and killing of scavengers/raptors via lead infused gut piles leaves me wondering how big a deal this really is.

    However I'm hearing the non lead copper rifle ammo is out performing traditional lead rounds.

    Has anyone made the switch? And if so why and how has the transition been?

    What's the future for lead/toxic shot in general?
    Your first sentence echoes my feelings on the matter exactly. A recent Meateater Podcast discussed the topic. I am concerned about the death by 1,000 cuts tactics of the anti hunters for sure, but we had better start at least discussing the topic and addressing certain aspects of it. Ignoring it will result in us not having a seat at the table when decisions get made because we just thought, "Oh that'll never happen".
    I don't know how big of a deal it really is or what the future holds, but I hope folks on the side of hunters speak up and don't try to just ignore it. Could be a very big issue for all of us obviously.

  7. #7
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    Years back I tried some Barnes bullets that were solid copper and painted blue. I got clover leaf groups out of that box but the deer did not care. Did not seem to open up enough. When the box ran out, I couldn't find more locally and lead was easier to come buy and the soft points open up.

    Since then. I believe the copper bullets are doing better. Phoneman and I talked about that the other day. But they cost more to reload.
    It's not enough to simply tolerate the 2nd Amendment as an antiquated inconvenience. Caring for the 2nd Amendment means fighting to restore long lost rights.

  8. #8
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    I'll stick with my lead core Berger until the libs outlaw them...
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  9. #9
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    Based on recent experiences, I believe the raptor population is doing just fine. In light of that, I encourage everyone to continue using the time-proved lead projectiles of their choosing.
    "This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you." John 15:12

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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by PharmHunter View Post
    Your first sentence echoes my feelings on the matter exactly. A recent Meateater Podcast discussed the topic. I am concerned about the death by 1,000 cuts tactics of the anti hunters for sure, but we had better start at least discussing the topic and addressing certain aspects of it. Ignoring it will result in us not having a seat at the table when decisions get made because we just thought, "Oh that'll never happen".
    I don't know how big of a deal it really is or what the future holds, but I hope folks on the side of hunters speak up and don't try to just ignore it. Could be a very big issue for all of us obviously.
    I feel it's coming across all weapons and seasons at some point. I was fairly young when we had to go to non toxic shot for waterfowl so I can't remember the opinions back then. The aftermath was filled with stories of increased cripples and lost birds from folks shooting steel at the same distances they shot lead. The inconsistency is what I don't understand. years ago when I lived and worked in Virginia we shot early season geese at a farm one morning and following the law we all had non toxic shot since we were hunting waterfowl. The man came by, checked us, said good day and we went to lunch. That afternoon we shot doves on the same farm a stones throw away from where we shot geese with lead #8's. The man checked us, we were cool and off they went. Now explain how that makes sense since the geese were feeding in the same fields full of lead shot but in both instances we were "legal"? I even asked the warden and he said "man I know it's weird but we don't get asked for our opinions."

    Can you imagine having to buy and shoot non toxic shot for dove season?! Those things cost enough per pound as it is.

  11. #11
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    Hornady GMX and Barnes TTSX is about all i shoot anymore. Now that I think about it between TSS and steel shot the only lead hunting loads I really use is dove loads.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn View Post
    I feel it's coming across all weapons and seasons at some point. I was fairly young when we had to go to non toxic shot for waterfowl so I can't remember the opinions back then. The aftermath was filled with stories of increased cripples and lost birds from folks shooting steel at the same distances they shot lead. The inconsistency is what I don't understand. years ago when I lived and worked in Virginia we shot early season geese at a farm one morning and following the law we all had non toxic shot since we were hunting waterfowl. The man came by, checked us, said good day and we went to lunch. That afternoon we shot doves on the same farm a stones throw away from where we shot geese with lead #8's. The man checked us, we were cool and off they went. Now explain how that makes sense since the geese were feeding in the same fields full of lead shot but in both instances we were "legal"? I even asked the warden and he said "man I know it's weird but we don't get asked for our opinions."

    Can you imagine having to buy and shoot non toxic shot for dove season?! Those things cost enough per pound as it is.
    Steel sucked when it came out, plus we didn't know how to shoot it. Now? Nobody can kill ducks any deader with $2.00 Bismunucleardeath shells than we do with regular steel shot. Nobody...

    I would venture to say that it will be the same with nontox rifle loads in the hands of people who know how to use them...

  13. #13
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    So far, my experience shooting whitetails with All Copper bullets is that to get that DRT performance we all desire, you must -

    1. Shoot a light for caliber/ cartridge bullet.
    2. Load your rounds to near max - to assist the bullet's expansion though high velocity ( see #1).
    3. Aim point needs to be bone - whether it be shoulder or spinal column. All copper bullets are tough and need to hit something hard to fully expand.

    If you don't hit bone and vitals, expect small exits ( although you will have an exit guaranteed) and a short blood trail. Almost the same performance as a lead/copper "Cup and core" type bullet.
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  14. #14
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    There was a study in one of the western states. I think it was South Dakota. They tested all the venison given to food pantry`s and a large portion of them had unsafe levels of lead in the meat, and some was far away from the point of impact. I think that lead will be outlawed eventually under the guise of food safety.

  15. #15
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    so, it was on Meateater podcast? I knew glenn couldnt think of this himself.

    and that meateater dude is still a putz.
    the end

    I noticed spur hunter is back so i dont have time for you ammo/retriever sorts.
    Ugh. Stupid people piss me off.

  16. #16
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    I too wonder how long before walking into your local store for a few boxes of dove loads will be in serious jeopardy, if it isn't already.

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  17. #17
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    Hawks die if you shoot deer with lead ?

    Anyone wanna buy all my Barnes ammo?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by nitro5x6's View Post
    So far, my experience shooting whitetails with All Copper bullets is that to get that DRT performance we all desire, you must -

    1. Shoot a light for caliber/ cartridge bullet.
    2. Load your rounds to near max - to assist the bullet's expansion though high velocity ( see #1).
    3. Aim point needs to be bone - whether it be shoulder or spinal column. All copper bullets are tough and need to hit something hard to fully expand.

    If you don't hit bone and vitals, expect small exits ( although you will have an exit guaranteed) and a short blood trail. Almost the same performance as a lead/copper "Cup and core" type bullet.
    This is spot on and the reason Im not touching a TTSX round ever again. I think the gilding metal or whatever it is in a GMX does a better job of expanding and if I had to go lead free that's my choice. That being said a Nosler BT or Sierra HPBT is all I want to fool with nowadays due to their exceptional performance.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2thDoc View Post
    so, it was on Meateater podcast? I knew glenn couldnt think of this himself.

    and that meateater dude is still a putz.
    the end

    I noticed spur hunter is back so i dont have time for you ammo/retriever sorts.
    Hey, Good Will Hunting. Whatever happened to you to make you this was isn't your fault.

    But it certainly isn't ours. Way over there is a cool shady spot you can go sit and be a Richard all by yourself.

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  20. #20
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    We really didn't understand the down range difference when the switch was made to steel shot- the old proven duck killer high brass lead 6 had the energy and 1.5" penetration at 83 yards that a same velocity steel 6 had at 25.

    Now the copper rifle rounds have made great progress- the Hornady GMX is highly praised- but they are a much higher cost factory load than the same lead round.

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