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Thread: Hunting vs assisting vs observing. The law or lack there of.

  1. #1
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    Default Hunting vs assisting vs observing. The law or lack there of.

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    As mentioned, it came to the attention of CWS that there "might" be wardens writing tickets to "strictly" hunting observers so we reached out to the attorney at SCDNR for further clarification. I also prompted Senator Goldfinch and he promptly took up the cause.

    A big thank you to you Stephen Goldfinch for always working to positively protect our hunting rights!

    Read below for email sent and reply from SCDNR:

    EMAIL SENT :

    Ryan,

    I hope this finds you well.

    It has come to my attention that tickets have been written by SCDNR LEO to "strictly observers" while accompanying a deer hunter in a stand or otherwise on hunting grounds both public and private. Having worked as a SCDNR LEO I understand that this may or may not be the case. However, multiple examples have recently come forth pointing to a true ambiguity of the definition concerning hunting vs observer vs assisting and licensing requirements for each.

    I have read : SECTION 50-1-20. "Hunters" and "hunting" defined.
    The word "hunters" in the game laws of this State providing punishment shall not be construed so as to include persons who, without guns, assist others with dogs and horses or in the finding or retrieving of birds nor shall any such activity be deemed to constitute "hunting" within the meaning of such laws..

    The above does not actually define hunter or hunting but only a very ambiguous area of exclusions not to be punished. Further , though it does mention birds, it does not in effect mention other game species leaving more confusion. Please clarify this if you will.

    Further I have found that hunting is defined in the SCDNR regulation guide but can find no title 50 law to back up that definition.

    As it reads in the SCDNR regulation book: hunting is defined as trying to find, seek, obtain, pursue or diligently search for game. Again, however I can find no SC title 50 code of laws to that same effect.

    I do see that on July, 27, 1982, that the then acting assistant AG, Buford Mabry, did mention Virginia's definition of hunting but not that said Virginia definition was in adoption by SC neither can I find that definition as noted in SC title 50 code of laws.
    Thus, in effect, if this is indeed the definition of hunting of which SC is enforcing then bird watchers, game watchers ,wild game photographers and those simply observing a hunt to see if they might be further interested in pursuing hunting would need a hunting license and be at risk of infraction.

    Please provide some forthright and clear delineation on what SC is lawfully defining as hunting and where in SC title 50 code of laws such a definition can be found as to the definition of hunting.

    Also and equally important please include the lawful delineation of the current action stance SCDNR LE is following in enforcing hunting versus observing versus assisting.

    Respectfully,

    David Strickland
    Carolina Wildlife Syndicate
    Lowcountry Wildlife Management

    REPLY :

    Good Morning David,
    Thank you for reaching out. As you and I both know as former game wardens, this can be a grey area that involves a lot of officer discretion. Each situation is different and our game wardens have to rely on what they observe in each case. You are correct that the definitions of “hunters” and “hunting” in Title 50 are quite ambiguous. We rely on case law which has held that hunting is defined more clearly as stated in our Rules and Regulations publication.
    I have spoken with Senator Goldfinch about the Title 50 ambiguity and we will be working with him to amend the statute to more clearly define the terms and explicitly list exemptions. Look for legislation to be filed in the upcoming legislative session.
    Thank you for putting this issue back on our radar.
    Take care,
    Kevin
    Kevin R. Ryan
    Director of Government Affairs
    Executive Office
    S.C. Department of Natural Resources
    Last edited by Strick9; 10-21-2020 at 09:57 PM.
    Genesis 9;2

  2. #2
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    Awesome work sir!

  3. #3
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    Hunting “is defined more clearly as stated in our rules and regulations”.... What a crock of shit. They may want to clear up then also why you need a duck stamp to ride along on a duck hunt or turkey tags to call for someone else, unless that’s my own misunderstanding?
    \"We say grace and we say maam, if you ain\'t into that, we don\'t give a damn.\" HW Jr.

  4. #4
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    I'd be curious if this is systemic issue of agents writing tickets or a particular area and group of officers.

    And are we talking about a young lady sitting with her boy friend, or 2 guys and one doesn't have a license?
    Yup, he's crazy...


    like a fox. The dude may be coming in a little too hard and crazy but 90% of everything he says is correct.

    Sort of like Toof. But way smarter.
    ~Scatter Shot

  5. #5
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    Playing devil’s advocate here SW. But what difference does it make if only one weapon. Maybe the guy is the other one’s boyfriend. That’s where we are these days it seems. GW do the same thing with number of fishing rods on a boat. I forget the number but if more than one person on the boat all have to be licensed if more than certain number of rods are being used. At least that’s what I’ve been told twice by wardens while stripper fishing. Once, they asked my wife for her license while she was clearly not engaged bc she was lying out on the bow, shocker. She had it. And another time with three on the boat. Told the boat owner either he was. Getting a ticket for fishing too many rods or the third guy was getting a ticket for no license....in the end ALL users of our resources, public at least hikers, bikers, horse riders and bird watchers should have to have a license and money goes only to support same. Dads should be able to take kids under certain age without a license like now.
    \"We say grace and we say maam, if you ain\'t into that, we don\'t give a damn.\" HW Jr.

  6. #6
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    Playing devil’s advocate here SW. But what difference does it make if only one weapon. Maybe the guy is the other one’s boyfriend. That’s where we are these days it seems. GW do the same thing with number of fishing rods on a boat. I forget the number but if more than one person on the boat all have to be licensed if more than certain number of rods are being used. At least that’s what I’ve been told twice by wardens while stripper fishing. Once, they asked my wife for her license while she was clearly not engaged bc she was lying out on the bow, shocker. She had it. And another time with three on the boat. Told the boat owner either he was. Getting a ticket for fishing too many rods or the third guy was getting a ticket for no license....in the end ALL users of our resources, public at least hikers, bikers, horse riders and bird watchers should have to have a license and money goes only to support same. Dads should be able to take kids under certain age without a license like now.
    \"We say grace and we say maam, if you ain\'t into that, we don\'t give a damn.\" HW Jr.

  7. #7
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    I have always believed if on WMA you need the permit regardless of participation in the hunt or not. As far as hunting license always thought it was if you are actively participating such as running dogs, calling, whatever then yes you need a license.... If just observer then need to be no camo, no calls, no gun and if on WMA at least the WMA permit
    “Duck hunting gives a man a chance to see the loneliest places …blinds washed by a rolling surf, blue and gold autumn marshes, …a rice field in the rain, flooded pin-oak forests or any remote river delta. In duck hunting the scene is as important as the shooting.” ~ Erwin Bauer, The Duck Hunter’s Bible, 1965

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palmetto Duck View Post
    Playing devil’s advocate here SW. But what difference does it make if only one weapon. Maybe the guy is the other one’s boyfriend. That’s where we are these days it seems. GW do the same thing with number of fishing rods on a boat. I forget the number but if more than one person on the boat all have to be licensed if more than certain number of rods are being used. At least that’s what I’ve been told twice by wardens while stripper fishing. Once, they asked my wife for her license while she was clearly not engaged bc she was lying out on the bow, shocker. She had it. And another time with three on the boat. Told the boat owner either he was. Getting a ticket for fishing too many rods or the third guy was getting a ticket for no license....in the end ALL users of our resources, public at least hikers, bikers, horse riders and bird watchers should have to have a license and money goes only to support same. Dads should be able to take kids under certain age without a license like now.
    Wait a min.

    Ok I’ll listen to you about to two fags but you lost me a bird watcher bike or horse rider or I guess using your logic a boater should have to pay for a license to ride a horse on their own property or a public park

    That’s why we pay taxes in the case of the parks and as for private property we still pay taxes.

    Santee was confiscated land as to make power for the betterment of society.

    Some of the other benefits was so we would have a public water way to fish and boat in.

    I just can’t agree with that.

    As far as taking game or fish I see your point.

    We live in a over regulated society as is we definitely do not need any more regulations
    To watch a bird?

    Come on
    Yup, he's crazy...


    like a fox. The dude may be coming in a little too hard and crazy but 90% of everything he says is correct.

    Sort of like Toof. But way smarter.
    ~Scatter Shot

  9. #9
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    How often do you think LEOs get the "but I was just watching" line? I feel its pretty apparent whether they were participating in the hunt or not.

    There is also an apprentice license easily available on line for those just trying to "watch" or "see if they will like it".

    That being said, clarifying of the current law can only help.

  10. #10
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    "Hey, there's a deer" is participating in a hunt...
    Ephesians 2 : 8-9



    Charles Barkley: Nobody doesn't like meat.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubberhead* View Post
    "Hey, there's a deer" is participating in a hunt...
    Great observation non-hunting observer!!!
    “Duck hunting gives a man a chance to see the loneliest places …blinds washed by a rolling surf, blue and gold autumn marshes, …a rice field in the rain, flooded pin-oak forests or any remote river delta. In duck hunting the scene is as important as the shooting.” ~ Erwin Bauer, The Duck Hunter’s Bible, 1965

  12. #12
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    I stopped reading once I read "Stephen Goldfinch"...
    "some men are mere hunters, others are turkey hunters"-Archibald Rutledge

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernWake View Post
    How often do you think LEOs get the "but I was just watching" line? I feel its pretty apparent whether they were participating in the hunt or not.

    There is also an apprentice license easily available on line for those just trying to "watch" or "see if they will like it".

    That being said, clarifying of the current law can only help.
    My thoughts exactly, people are shitty. Clarify the law sure but I doubt there’s been a real issue with observers getting tickets while “just watching”. I used to take my wife with me back when we were dating, tried numerous times to get her to shoot a deer. Never had a license, had we gotten caught I would’ve paid the ticket and moved on because I knew the law and rolled the dice. I was young and stupid, how many of y’all will nut up and admit you’ve done it?

  14. #14
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    A horse back rider/man driver (without a gun) actively participating in the driving of deer is often doing more to actually hunt a deer than a stander/shooter of a drive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whackumstackum View Post
    My thoughts exactly, people are shitty. Clarify the law sure but I doubt there’s been a real issue with observers getting tickets while “just watching”. I used to take my wife with me back when we were dating, tried numerous times to get her to shoot a deer. Never had a license, had we gotten caught I would’ve paid the ticket and moved on because I knew the law and rolled the dice. I was young and stupid, how many of y’all will nut up and admit you’ve done it?
    I am yet to get a ticket for following the law. This strikes me as someone complaining as they don't think its "fair" they got a ticket.

    I feel like this is a solution looking for a problem.

  16. #16
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    Yet again, this just magnifies how fucked up the game laws in this state are.......
    Quote Originally Posted by Mars Bluff View Post
    Only thing we need to be wearing in this country are ass whippings & condoms. That'll clear up half our issues.

  17. #17
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    Don't even get started on the whole concept of people thinking that they must pay the government a tax to go out and hunt their food on their own land...

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by JABIII View Post
    Don't even get started on the whole concept of people thinking that they must pay the government a tax to go out and hunt their food on their own land...
    I'm trying to wrap my mind around how much of a sheep you'd have to be to even ask this question to begin with......
    Quote Originally Posted by Mars Bluff View Post
    Only thing we need to be wearing in this country are ass whippings & condoms. That'll clear up half our issues.

  19. #19
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    I hear what your saying, but heck he was advocating to walk in the outdoors and or watch birds needed a license.

    As to the horse. Maybe having a license isn't a bad thing. I'd say 80% of the people who own horses can't afford them. On the questionnaire to get said license it should read:

    Do you plan on stiffing the feed store on your bills? How about the person you get hay from? Do you plan to actually pay the vet? If you answered yes to the first 2 and no to the second you do not qualify for your horse license.
    Yup, he's crazy...


    like a fox. The dude may be coming in a little too hard and crazy but 90% of everything he says is correct.

    Sort of like Toof. But way smarter.
    ~Scatter Shot

  20. #20
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    I am on the side of hunter recruitment.

    If it takes holding the bag of snacks while I climb the stand to participate in the hunt, you have just created a reason for someone to not go. I wont buy someone else's license to take them hunting to see what it's like.

    Warnings and a strong talking to will go a long way to recruitment over "making a case". I have always heard that enforcement is "education over penalization" but I dont see much of that.
    "Rivers and the inhabitants of the watery elements are for wise men to contemplate and for fools to pass by without consideration" -Izaak Walton

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