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Thread: Gas Water Heaters

  1. #1
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    Default Gas Water Heaters

    Anyone have any good info on which brand and model of Power Exhaust water heater is 'the best'... defined as reasonably priced and lasts longer than 5-6 years?

    Have gone through two AO Smith Vertex 50 gallon units in 12 1/2 years. Both have started leaking through the sidewalls @ about 5 years, despite good water (no softener), flushed annually, sits in heated/air conditioned, dry basement, etc.

    Does any brand nowadays have longer than a 6 year warranty?

    Only need a 40 gallon unit, and maybe a 30 if it was a high efficiency, high recovery unit, etc.

    Does any commercial brand, in a lower 30-40 gallon size, have a stainless liner vs the glass in residential models?

    Thanks for any info.
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    We have a 30 gallon unit, and we wish we had more. It's just my wife and I, and she would kill for 10 more gallons.

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    Just get a tankless.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Colin4; 06-28-2018 at 05:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moonlight Hunter View Post
    We have a 30 gallon unit, and we wish we had more. It's just my wife and I, and she would kill for 10 more gallons.
    Is your heater gas or electric? This gas one I've got is 50 gallons, but has a first hour output capacity of 120+ gallons, and a second hour of 90+ gallons. We couldn't use that much if we still had orgies in the whirlpool... LOL
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    Electric. It was brand new when we moved in, and since it was just us, we figured it would be OK. We were wrong. We get about 10 minutes of hot water, then nothing. We put a low-flow shower head in one of the showers to see if that would give us a little more time. It does, but I don't like it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodieSC View Post
    Anyone have any good info on which brand and model of Power Exhaust water heater is 'the best'... defined as reasonably priced and lasts longer than 5-6 years?

    Have gone through two AO Smith Vertex 50 gallon units in 12 1/2 years. Both have started leaking through the sidewalls @ about 5 years, despite good water (no softener), flushed annually, sits in heated/air conditioned, dry basement, etc.

    Does any brand nowadays have longer than a 6 year warranty?

    Only need a 40 gallon unit, and maybe a 30 if it was a high efficiency, high recovery unit, etc.

    Does any commercial brand, in a lower 30-40 gallon size, have a stainless liner vs the glass in residential models?

    Thanks for any info.
    Stainless tank? No. Stainless liner? No.

    Gas isn't going to get you any quicker recovery than electric, really. And, unless you have access to NG, you're going to spend WAY more money on LP than any marginal increase in recovery.

    If you're only getting a few minutes of recovery, I'd look at replacing the dip tube. That's your likely problem and it's cheap/easy to fix.

    If you're burning the unit up every few years, it's a firing issue. You're literally burning the unit up for some reason. It could be a thermostat issue that is recurring... it could be a dip tube dumping cold water at the outlet and causing the unit to fire all of the time when drawing water off the top.

    As far as which manufacturer to pick, there's not much you can do here. I'll bet 95% of residential heaters are manufactured by one or two companies and are brand labeled by an OEM.

    I can go on and on all day on this subject. If you've got any pointed questions, hit me with a PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colin4 View Post
    Just get a tankless.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
    You could do this. However, you'll spend more money than it's worth and it opens up a whole 'nother realm of maintenance.

    I steer everyone that I can away from these things for too many reasons to list here. Price is my #1 issue. Maintenance (that never actually gets done) is #2.
    "Freedom Isn't Free"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dook View Post
    Go tigers!

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    Listen to Turbo...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Luvin' Labs View Post
    Listen to Turbo...
    It is amazing how much he knows about water heaters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moonlight Hunter View Post
    It is amazing how much he knows about water heaters.
    I have sold them forever, and know a decent amount about most brands. Turbo has built and designed them. He's a fairly smart fellar, no matter how off his rocker he seems.

  10. #10
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    I've been off my rocker for quite some time.

    It's the Rock Hill po po's fault.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dook View Post
    Go tigers!

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    Turbo, what maintenance is required on the tankless water heaters?
    For the ducks

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    Quote Originally Posted by ceddy View Post
    Turbo, what maintenance is required on the tankless water heaters?
    Flushing should be done at least twice a year. This requires some kind of chemical flush (vinegar, food safe acid, etc).

    Burner maintenance. This requires swapping burner mats at manufacturer specified intervals at the very least.

    Anti-freeze maintenance. The ribbons of heater units are cheap and notorious for intermittent failure. It's an afterthought for our area of the country and nobody knows to look until it's too late. Let your heat exchanger freeze up and call me when you get that bill. The ones I've worked with were 100% copper and pricey as hell.

    Flow meter testing/replacement. These units fire based on a flow set point. If the unit doesn't know you've called for hot water, she won't fire. This is an inline prop style meter in most manufacturers. They're not necessarily expensive, but usually are installed in the most inexplicable location and require isolation of water pressure to replace. Most installers don't provide downstream isolation.

    I can go on and on and on.

    I'll see if I can dig up a manufacturer's maintenance list and post here.
    "Freedom Isn't Free"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dook View Post
    Go tigers!

  13. #13
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    I forgot about filter screens. This is a big issue in our region because of water well proliferation.
    "Freedom Isn't Free"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dook View Post
    Go tigers!

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    Screens and strainers... they'll getchya won't they?

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    They will, sir.

    They most definitely will.

    Not that I have any embarrassing experience or anything...
    "Freedom Isn't Free"
    _Spc. Thomas Caughman
    1983-2004

    Quote Originally Posted by Dook View Post
    Go tigers!

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbo View Post
    Stainless tank? No. Stainless liner? No.

    Gas isn't going to get you any quicker recovery than electric, really. And, unless you have access to NG, you're going to spend WAY more money on LP than any marginal increase in recovery.

    If you're only getting a few minutes of recovery, I'd look at replacing the dip tube. That's your likely problem and it's cheap/easy to fix.
    *** (??? I'm guessing you're responding to Moonlight Hunter on this, right?)

    If you're burning the unit up every few years, it's a firing issue. You're literally burning the unit up for some reason. It could be a thermostat issue that is recurring... it could be a dip tube dumping cold water at the outlet and causing the unit to fire all of the time when drawing water off the top.

    As far as which manufacturer to pick, there's not much you can do here. I'll bet 95% of residential heaters are manufactured by one or two companies and are brand labeled by an OEM.

    I can go on and on all day on this subject. If you've got any pointed questions, hit me with a PM.
    turbo,

    I greatly respect your engineering expertise, but I think you're mistaken on the question of gas vs electric 'gallon recover rate @ 90 degree rise', and operating $ cost, although you may be right with LPG costs, I don't know.

    However, a NG water heater will about double the hourly output, if not greater, than an equally sized electric unit... and for about 1/2 the cost or less, depending on the local utility costs and the unit efficiencies.

    Example:

    The NG water heater I've got is the AO Smith Vertex Power Vent GHPE 50 gallon unit. It used to cost about $1200 and is now priced, absurdly, up around $2200+ (I'd tell anyone to walk away fast even at half the price).

    The specs on the 50 gallon unit are:

    AOSmith Vertex Specs.png

    There is no way the average, or even a premium, residential electric heater can match a 120+ gallon first hour and a 90+ gallon second hour and beyond recovery rate. We can run two showers, the clothes washer on hot loads and the dish washer all at the same time all day long. Obviously, we don't do that or need to with just the two of us. I installed the unit at the time because I thought we might move and thus sized it for a full house of kids, etc.

    As for the operating costs, based on our actual numbers from Ft. Hill Gas and Duke Energy, the NG costs are right about 1/3 the cost of the electric...

    - 1 Therm = 100,000 BTU
    - $0.95831 per Therm
    = $0.95831 / 100,000 BTU

    100,000 BTU = 29.29 KW
    - $0.0984 per KW
    = $2.88 / 100,000 BTU

    Please feel free to show me where any of my numbers are wrong in case I've moved a decimal point or something.

    As for why my units are crapping out... I spent a month or more working with AO's tech people back in 2016 when I first had problems with the ignitor/flame sensor refusing to light off. I had the gas company test and change out their gas regulator (even though the old one was in the middle of the spec @ .075 psi ~ 2" water column). I subsequently installed a new Intellivent control unit on the water heater and set the gas manifold pressure at the nominal 2" water column pressure, but actually had to cut back the inlet gas valve to accomplish it.

    AOS techs reviewed a video of the burner flame and 'blessed it' as being acceptable. Thus, I'm haven't been 'cooking' the unit as far as they or I can tell.

    The inlet cold water is regulated down from line pressure to 30 psi before it goes through an expansion tank and then into the water heater. I've also regulated down the cold water pressure into the MB shower to 50 psi so as to allow the Moen pressure balancing valve to work effectively. If we were seeing hot water temperature fluctuations due to the dip tube dumping cold water, higher inlet cold water pressure (as one AO Rep claimed was the problem the other day), or a thermostat problem, we'd see it in the shower temperature control valve and that nominal positioning hasn't changed over the years except when I increased the hot water temp from 125 deg to 130 deg awhile back.

    I'd love to figure out why these units are failing (leaking through the sidewalls) within 5-6 years. If there's something wrong with our water or the setup that I've missed, I need to ID it before I install a new heater in the near future.

    Btw, the last time I checked, our incoming water PH was just about 7.0 or tad higher (I think). I need to recheck that to be sure.

    Any other ideas?

    I did read awhile back about a company that was coming out with a residential water heater with a 'plastic' lining vs the glass, but need to see if they're still on the market and what the feedback is. I don't know if that's a good idea or not, but something has to be better than these glass-lined tanks that get cracks in them in a few years.

    And, no, I have no interest in a tankless unit for all the reasons you explained above.

    Thanks.
    .
    Foothills Golden Retriever Rescue
    .
    "Keep your powder dry, Boys!"
    ~ George Washington

    "If I understood everything I said I'd be a genius." ~ 'Unknown'

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodieSC View Post
    turbo,

    I greatly respect your engineering expertise, but I think you're mistaken on the question of gas vs electric 'gallon recover rate @ 90 degree rise', and operating $ cost, although you may be right with LPG costs, I don't know.

    However, a NG water heater will about double the hourly output, if not greater, than an equally sized electric unit... and for about 1/2 the cost or less, depending on the local utility costs and the unit efficiencies.

    Example:

    The NG water heater I've got is the AO Smith Vertex Power Vent GHPE 50 gallon unit. It used to cost about $1200 and is now priced, absurdly, up around $2200+ (I'd tell anyone to walk away fast even at half the price).

    The specs on the 50 gallon unit are:

    AOSmith Vertex Specs.png

    There is no way the average, or even a premium, residential electric heater can match a 120+ gallon first hour and a 90+ gallon second hour and beyond recovery rate. We can run two showers, the clothes washer on hot loads and the dish washer all at the same time all day long. Obviously, we don't do that or need to with just the two of us. I installed the unit at the time because I thought we might move and thus sized it for a full house of kids, etc.

    As for the operating costs, based on our actual numbers from Ft. Hill Gas and Duke Energy, the NG costs are right about 1/3 the cost of the electric...

    - 1 Therm = 100,000 BTU
    - $0.95831 per Therm
    = $0.95831 / 100,000 BTU

    100,000 BTU = 29.29 KW
    - $0.0984 per KW
    = $2.88 / 100,000 BTU

    Please feel free to show me where any of my numbers are wrong in case I've moved a decimal point or something.

    As for why my units are crapping out... I spent a month or more working with AO's tech people back in 2016 when I first had problems with the ignitor/flame sensor refusing to light off. I had the gas company test and change out their gas regulator (even though the old one was in the middle of the spec @ .075 psi ~ 2" water column). I subsequently installed a new Intellivent control unit on the water heater and set the gas manifold pressure at the nominal 2" water column pressure, but actually had to cut back the inlet gas valve to accomplish it.

    AOS techs reviewed a video of the burner flame and 'blessed it' as being acceptable. Thus, I'm haven't been 'cooking' the unit as far as they or I can tell.

    The inlet cold water is regulated down from line pressure to 30 psi before it goes through an expansion tank and then into the water heater. I've also regulated down the cold water pressure into the MB shower to 50 psi so as to allow the Moen pressure balancing valve to work effectively. If we were seeing hot water temperature fluctuations due to the dip tube dumping cold water, higher inlet cold water pressure (as one AO Rep claimed was the problem the other day), or a thermostat problem, we'd see it in the shower temperature control valve and that nominal positioning hasn't changed over the years except when I increased the hot water temp from 125 deg to 130 deg awhile back.

    I'd love to figure out why these units are failing (leaking through the sidewalls) within 5-6 years. If there's something wrong with our water or the setup that I've missed, I need to ID it before I install a new heater in the near future.

    Btw, the last time I checked, our incoming water PH was just about 7.0 or tad higher (I think). I need to recheck that to be sure.

    Any other ideas?

    I did read awhile back about a company that was coming out with a residential water heater with a 'plastic' lining vs the glass, but need to see if they're still on the market and what the feedback is. I don't know if that's a good idea or not, but something has to be better than these glass-lined tanks that get cracks in them in a few years.

    And, no, I have no interest in a tankless unit for all the reasons you explained above.

    Thanks.
    Turbo ain’t no Engineer. He boxes up water heaters and reads the boxes as he works.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timsmith View Post
    Turbo ain’t no Engineer. He boxes up water heaters and reads the boxes as he works.
    Tim's right. But, I did stay at the Holiday Inn Express a few weeks back. So, that's gotta count for something, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by WoodieSC View Post
    turbo,

    I greatly respect your engineering expertise, but I think you're mistaken on the question of gas vs electric 'gallon recover rate @ 90 degree rise', and operating $ cost, although you may be right with LPG costs, I don't know.

    However, a NG water heater will about double the hourly output, if not greater, than an equally sized electric unit... and for about 1/2 the cost or less, depending on the local utility costs and the unit efficiencies.

    Example:

    The NG water heater I've got is the AO Smith Vertex Power Vent GHPE 50 gallon unit. It used to cost about $1200 and is now priced, absurdly, up around $2200+ (I'd tell anyone to walk away fast even at half the price).

    The specs on the 50 gallon unit are:

    AOSmith Vertex Specs.png

    There is no way the average, or even a premium, residential electric heater can match a 120+ gallon first hour and a 90+ gallon second hour and beyond recovery rate. We can run two showers, the clothes washer on hot loads and the dish washer all at the same time all day long. Obviously, we don't do that or need to with just the two of us. I installed the unit at the time because I thought we might move and thus sized it for a full house of kids, etc.

    As for the operating costs, based on our actual numbers from Ft. Hill Gas and Duke Energy, the NG costs are right about 1/3 the cost of the electric...

    - 1 Therm = 100,000 BTU
    - $0.95831 per Therm
    = $0.95831 / 100,000 BTU

    100,000 BTU = 29.29 KW
    - $0.0984 per KW
    = $2.88 / 100,000 BTU

    Please feel free to show me where any of my numbers are wrong in case I've moved a decimal point or something.

    As for why my units are crapping out... I spent a month or more working with AO's tech people back in 2016 when I first had problems with the ignitor/flame sensor refusing to light off. I had the gas company test and change out their gas regulator (even though the old one was in the middle of the spec @ .075 psi ~ 2" water column). I subsequently installed a new Intellivent control unit on the water heater and set the gas manifold pressure at the nominal 2" water column pressure, but actually had to cut back the inlet gas valve to accomplish it.

    AOS techs reviewed a video of the burner flame and 'blessed it' as being acceptable. Thus, I'm haven't been 'cooking' the unit as far as they or I can tell.

    The inlet cold water is regulated down from line pressure to 30 psi before it goes through an expansion tank and then into the water heater. I've also regulated down the cold water pressure into the MB shower to 50 psi so as to allow the Moen pressure balancing valve to work effectively. If we were seeing hot water temperature fluctuations due to the dip tube dumping cold water, higher inlet cold water pressure (as one AO Rep claimed was the problem the other day), or a thermostat problem, we'd see it in the shower temperature control valve and that nominal positioning hasn't changed over the years except when I increased the hot water temp from 125 deg to 130 deg awhile back.

    I'd love to figure out why these units are failing (leaking through the sidewalls) within 5-6 years. If there's something wrong with our water or the setup that I've missed, I need to ID it before I install a new heater in the near future.

    Btw, the last time I checked, our incoming water PH was just about 7.0 or tad higher (I think). I need to recheck that to be sure.

    Any other ideas?

    I did read awhile back about a company that was coming out with a residential water heater with a 'plastic' lining vs the glass, but need to see if they're still on the market and what the feedback is. I don't know if that's a good idea or not, but something has to be better than these glass-lined tanks that get cracks in them in a few years.

    And, no, I have no interest in a tankless unit for all the reasons you explained above.

    Thanks.
    The one thing that you're forgetting to factor in is actual heat transfer.

    In the case of an electric water heater, the resistance elements are actually in the water. True convection. Heat transfer performance based on copper alloy numbers. Electric rates in our part of the world are pretty reasonable. This dissertation may or may not apply in other parts of the world.

    In the case of a gas fired heater (residential), the burner is situated to where the tank is being "fired". Two problems with this: 1. It's inefficient from the standpoint of heat transfer (think pot on the stove). 2. Heat transfer performance is based on carbon steel numbers (much less efficient than copper).

    My point about burn out was this: Direct firing a fiberglass lined steel vessel is problematic for a couple of reasons. Carbon steel and fiberglass act a bit differently when heat is applied. I can promise you that the expansion/contraction of steel is much more pronounced (and much faster) than that of fiberglass. This causes problems down the road with lining separation and vessel corrosion issues. Fiberglass degradation is also sped up quite a bit at the temperatures the wall of that vessel sees under fire (cracking/separation). I expect that this is where your problem is. To AO Smith's point, there's not a notably better way to accomplish a lining in a pressure vessel that complies with ASME and other gov't standards inside of the price point that you're talking about.

    I can guarantee you one thing: When you look at the performance vs. cost (purchase cost all the way through to maintenance and longevity/cost of service for the life of the unit), you will not find a better payoff than electric units.
    Period.

    As far as a "plastic" lining, there is no such thing and never will be. What you've heard of in an epoxy lining. Some folks have found that it makes sense to spray/roll apply some of the 100% solids (read no VOCs) epoxy linings. Again, you will NOT find this at the price point that you're used to.

    Finally, in my experience in the pressure vessel industry (I'm no longer employed in this industry, by the way), AO Smith engineers aren't worth the air they breathe.
    "Freedom Isn't Free"
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    1983-2004

    Quote Originally Posted by Dook View Post
    Go tigers!

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