SCDNR turkey hunting survey

[AnythingFeathers]

Sorry pal, but as I already said it is "in the review process."
A lot of variables involved with review such as where was it submitted, what professionals will conduct the review, and how strenuous the review will be.
This usually involves questions, critique, request for data.
It could take weeks, months, or longer with a lot of back and forth all depending on where they submitted it.
Also, it will not get published in a legitimate journal without some level of review.
It will be interesting to see how it shakes out but I'd be willing to bet it has been pushed for review away from the critical thinking of Collier and Chamberlain for obvious reasons.

I know Craig Harper personally and think the world of him.
He is a foremost authority on vegetative management and a wizard full of knowledge in that respect.
I don't doubt the role that habitat and predator management play in game management as most on here surely feel the same way.
But, to discount the importance of letting the breeding cycle play out before we begin to harvest our birds especially right now with declining populations is ignorant.

We have no business killing turkeys during the month of March in SC, period!
Unfortunately, most of the people hanging on to the idea of a March start date are doing so for selfish reasons, because my daddy did it in March, my birds are OK, etc etc

Craig went into this study vocally opposed to the TN moving their start date back and that is a fact.
At the end of the day, that raises questions for pause as to how the data is interpreted in the study.

Regardless, I still think the world of Craig but I'm hanging my hat with the two men who have dedicated their lives to studying and better understanding the wild turkey, not the vegetative specialist!

Of course you know him. You seem to know and think the world of everyone in the hunting world. “From what I hear” it’s because “your daddy did it” and your still riding the coattails.

Listen to this weeks podcast, they will explain to you, and everybody else, that wants this to be shredded how the publication process works and that this has been through peer review. They also go in depth on how these studies move from hypothesis to accepted science. They also talk about Chamberlain’s HYPOTHESIS. They don't try to discredit it, they explain that the data in not there- yet- to back it up. They also explain why you only want to hang your hat on one idea. This study is just one facet of what could be going on, it is not an answer to anything as to why populations are struggling. It will take more studies and more time to even get close to a solution. And, more than likely the solution will not be something the legislature can regulate into place. I.E- habitat management, predator management. And maybe some things they are unwilling to regulate- baiting.

I have never thought we should be hunting in March.
Don’t care if they move it to April 10.But only if the science points to that. Our states moving to that is based on a theory that, apparently, been disproven.

As far as Craig Harper goes, I’ll pass along your opinions about what he’s good at and how he ran a biased study. Your not the only on who knows. Those really in the know don’t have to brag about it.

Keep sucking ass maybe, just maybe, it will get you somewhere, other than here, one day!!!

FULLCHOKE-
My credentials are only a fairly open mind and the ability to discern proven from theory.
Also, a keen sense of smell for bullshit and assholes( this site gives me sensory overload)

Your description of podcasts, less the microphone and recording, sounds like this forum. I also do not care for most podcasts, but these guys are putting great information out there. Without ads or inserts for sponsors. They do, of course, interject their scientific opinions in there, but do not dismiss proven science in place of there opinions.

Tater
Listen to podcast, find and read the study. BACKING UP SEASON DIDN’T CHANGE THINGS. Why do it when it doesn’t help?
Chamberlain’s theory is just that-theory. Not proven. What if we move the season and hunter efficiency goes way up? As suggested by the Tennessee study. Will you be ok with harvest going up because of it? Killing more gobblers because they are now out looking for hens harder? We’ve already heard that backfire once, but hen they dropped the limit gave us more time to hunt.

All of you get your head out of whoever’s ass it’s in and try to see the whole, albeit, incomplete, picture

[Calibogue]

You're.....

[TXFowler]

I think (for the most part) everyone in this discussion is in the same chapter, but on a different page. I believe we can all agree that there are several issues driving numbers down and there is no smoking gun (yet). I definitely believe the low country should have a start date no earlier than 4/1. I would like to see a similar study completed here with contingencies attached. Push season for a few years (maybe even try every other game zone or something) and compare that data to see what effect it has. The issue with not making it statewide is a lot of folks will just go to the next game zone to get in the woods-you’re just offsetting potential harvest rates there.

Another thing I would like to see that I know is a huge challenge, is data based on known success rates and population numbers and not harvest numbers. If I am not mistaken, the study in Tennessee based on harvest data suggests we are killing the same number of birds and not necessarily maintaining or recruiting a higher population.


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[AnythingFeathers]

………a smart, informed MF that can stand on his own 2 feet

[KRT]

Research Results on a Delayed Turkey Season
U.T. Knoxville grad student, Joseph Quehl, shared some very interesting research results gathered from his work, Assessing the Effects of the Spring Hunting Season Start Date on Wild Turkey Seasonal Productivity and Hunter Behavior.

You can read the paper in its entirety at the link above, but the studies and surveys conducted over a 5 year period seem to show that a delayed start to the hunting season didn’t prove to be of any benefit.

Our data do not support the hypothesis that delaying the start date of the spring hunting season by two weeks in south-middle Tennessee would benefit wild turkey productivity.

We documented no effect of the two-week delay on wild turkey productivity, poult survival or hen survival. Our results demonstrate that beginning the wild turkey hunting season during the early stages of nest initiation did not result in decreased productivity when compared to beginning the season closer to the onset of incubation

https://trace.tennessee.edu/cgi/view...t=utk_gradthes

[KRT]

Delayed start didn’t seem to help TN.

[ccleroy]

Regardless of the outcome I have zero faith our legislators will listen anyways, what the hell we are bickering over in the end baffles me.


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[AnythingFeathers]

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcas...=1000655398071

Listen to it. Hate listening to these things, but this is one is great. It rolls just about the information they’ve gotten from biologists around the country. It even touches on why people can’t move on from a disproven idea.
What you are asking for is the same thing these guys, among others, are asking. They are getting great nest data- initiation/ incubation times, fertility success, nest predation or abandonment-, some of it from our DNR at the Webb Center, but they don’t have a handle on survivability rates beyond a few months old. We don’t shoot hens, so why are they not surviving? But that, unfortunately, sounds like it would be a very difficult study.

[AnythingFeathers]

Anybody think this little dusted will get me dis-invited to the Invitational?

[Calibogue]

Anybody think this little dusted will get me dis-invited to the Invitational?

Sorry bud, but it's hard to get dis-invited when you're not on the list to begin with!

[TXFowler]

Regardless of the outcome I have zero faith our legislators will listen anyways, what the hell we are bickering over in the end baffles me.


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I think that’s one of the biggest hurdles in the entire process.


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[Tater]

This is a recruitment issue, not a season date/harvest total issue. Dates and harvest numbers have to be considered because they are a factor. That can be proven by the simple fact that no dates and no harvest at the population levels the birds are at right now will result in more recruitment. I think it’s pretty obviously that you have emotional ties to this based on the fact that you can’t make an argument without dropping the gloves and flinging insults. Kinda makes it hard to convince someone to see your side.

Since this is a recruitment issue I think it’s hard to argue that protecting the recruitment process from breeding thru nesting is a bad idea. In fact, thru the establishment of the poults into the flock would be a better end date. The problem with that is turkey hunters are part of the calculus of the process. If you remove hunters you remove the money which shuts down the research.

If you truly want to improve recruitment in the fastest way possible using seasons and harvest then you will go to a fall only season with the same or lower gobbler only harvest.

[TXFowler]

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcas...=1000655398071

Listen to it. Hate listening to these things, but this is one is great. It rolls just about the information they’ve gotten from biologists around the country. It even touches on why people can’t move on from a disproven idea.
What you are asking for is the same thing these guys, among others, are asking. They are getting great nest data- initiation/ incubation times, fertility success, nest predation or abandonment-, some of it from our DNR at the Webb Center, but they don’t have a handle on survivability rates beyond a few months old. We don’t shoot hens, so why are they not surviving? But that, unfortunately, sounds like it would be a very difficult study.

Pretty sure in that podcast they revert back to predation being the biggest contributor (can’t remember if that was directed towards poults, hens, or the entire population).

One of the many things that I give these guys credit for, it they are not afraid to admit when they are incorrect and follow where the science takes them.


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[Tater]

One of the many things that I give these guys credit for, it they are not afraid to admit when they are incorrect and follow where the science takes them.

That’s the life of science. Especially wildlife population sciences as there are no absolutes and your dealing with a process that is real and happening in front of you, not something that can be simulated or replicated in a lab. Animal population is one of the toughest of the sciences for this reason. Hell, doctors have rats and monkeys to test on before going to humans with their theories. Animal population folks don’t have that luxury. Instead, they have to be smart enough and humble enough to recognize mistakes early and change their approach.

[PharmHunter]

………a smart, informed MF that can stand on his own 2 feet

Dang, fella...perhaps if you've got good information or points to add to a discussion, you'd be taken more seriously or listened to without hurling out a bunch of personal insults. Especially when the people you're insulting are actively doing a ton of work for the betterment of the resource.

[PBiz]

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcas...=1000655398071

Listen to it. Hate listening to these things, but this is one is great. It rolls just about the information they’ve gotten from biologists around the country. It even touches on why people can’t move on from a disproven idea.
What you are asking for is the same thing these guys, among others, are asking. They are getting great nest data- initiation/ incubation times, fertility success, nest predation or abandonment-, some of it from our DNR at the Webb Center, but they don’t have a handle on survivability rates beyond a few months old. We don’t shoot hens, so why are they not surviving? But that, unfortunately, sounds like it would be a very difficult study.

Ty, why are you worried about a later start date for the Lowcountry, being from Spartanburg and all..

[AnythingFeathers]

Ty, why are you worried about a later start date for the Lowcountry, being from Spartanburg and all..

Not worried, don’t really care. As long as the science data support it. They can start February for all I care. Might even find a place to go down there. If you know me, you know how much I love to hunt’em. My point was if Chamberlain’s research proves that killing dominate birds early, then the Lowcountry might benefit. If it doesn’t, it won’t.

I’m actually from GA. Loved starting in last week of March. Hell, I didn’t even mind when opened statewide early. But I’m an addict. Give me 60 days to hunt and I’ll take them. Just not sure I’d survive the lack of sleep!!!!!

[AnythingFeathers]

Sorry bud, but it's hard to get dis-invited when you're not on the list to begin with!

Dang! And I just ordered a new blind, new strutter, dried 2 fans, bought a few of those 80 yd shells. All with the intent on winning that thing!

[Glenn]

Can’t disagree. I believe it is a little bit of everything as you said. And moving the season back will certainly not hurt, but it will take time to see if that pays dividends as or not. Tennessee proved otherwise, but they also only studied 4 years and most of that time they had great nest and poult success, if I am remembering correctly, so there’s that…


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So they moved the start date back for 4 years and in those 4 years they had great poult and nest success but moving the start date proved ineffective at increasing the population?

Does this sound antithetical to itself?

[Duck Tape]

Regardless of the outcome I have zero faith our legislators will listen anyways, what the hell we are bickering over in the end baffles me.


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Yeah, they could be listening to some of the dissenters from SC Ducks.