Force fetching

[FEETDOWN]

I can't rightly remember a thread on scducks where one individual has been so thoroughly owned by another as thisun here. Score one for the white dog dude.

I got nothin. Carry on

[Birddawg]

Waylon shit on the rug today. That's why White Quaker is so ornery.

[mudminnow]

everybody drinks a kool-aid it just depends on the flavor. while i could spew out some positive reinforcement propaganda and try to belittle your way of training, i won't because your ways work. I will not argue that one bit. What FT champions can do is incredible. But i would also like to point out that the new trend in the FT world is not FF but a force hold.
I know milner is in it to make a buck, but so are all of the other trainers. Have you worked a duckhill or british FTCH pup? If not, please don't make generalizations like that, just as i won't say that all FT line dogs are high strung and nuerotic. I have been very pleased with my duckhill pup and training with Positive reinforcement.
I still feel that if a dolphin can be trained to mark underwater mines miles away through schools of baitfishand come back with positive reinforcement, i should be able to train a dog to retrieve a bird with the same methods.
Any dog trainer that is not trying to learn more about how to train animals, whether by positive reinforcement or positive punishment, is closing his mind and will not be a well rounded trainer. I think that BLackfoot kennels has a good approach right now with positive reinforcement as puppies and FF later on to teach the dog to understand pressure and how to respond to it.

Sorry for te essay, but it is worth it for anyone getting a dog to try and figure out the best way to train a dog.

[white quacker]

Positive reinforcement at the puppy stages is a totally different ballgame and a no brainer.

Answer me this...You dog is 100 yards or even 10 yards away from you and gives you a cast refusal. How do you correct with positive reinforcement? Attrition is not an answer here. I want to know how you correct the cast refusal. This is not during the teaching phase of the game, but once a dog is schooled and he is giving you a cast refusal bc "he knows better than you," what would you or milner do to correct the dog at that point?

Also, do you train amish? Meaning no e-collar, heeling stick, etc.

[white quacker]

side note... I have seen Milner dogs run. One with a big white patch on his chest. One who's owner was blowing a "silent" dog whistle, who responded to nothing. Seen one that "handled" and by that I mean he ran around like a wild animal and did what it wanted.

I am open to training anyway possible, but I also buy into reality and results. Clickers, for example, work on a housedog. Just as Milner works on a dog that only picks up a few birds a year and is more of a pet than a competitor or hunter. When a dog is faced with factors (wind, scent, terrain changes, etc.) and allowed to get away with making bad decisions and/or doing what it wants, it creates habits. Bad habits are hard to be broken and even harder to the "praised away".

[mudminnow]

The goal of training is slowly increasing distraction so that a minimal amount of those situations occur. Blinds are trained before marks are emphasized. What happens is that the dog ends up giving a higher reward value in his mind on blinds. So since my pups were like 4 months most of their retrieves have been hand signals with single t or something like that. The limitation with training this way is that the dog will pop every thirty or forty yards. So while training with positive reinforcement rarely is there a problem with cast refusal. But popping. How we fix that is only rewarding whistle stops and ignoring pops. If there is a cast refusal we would say the dog has not been tested under that much distraction and we would go back to basics and proof the. Behavior with increasing distractions. Kinda weak answer to the question but the mindset that we work on is that a dog does what pays. And if he refuses a command it is because it does not pay in that distraction level to follow it. Is it attrition? I don't think so because what should be done with PR is to re teach the refused command.
My own personal example is when I went to the lake a few weeks ago I thought i could relax the honoring work and let the dogs just swim around and have fun chasing sticks and whatever. Next thing you know I am having breaking and honoring problems so I went back to simple honoring drills building up to tonight where my pups were steady to the other dog running at them picking up a bumper in front of their face and returning it to heel without breaking.
I went on way to long but the point is we don't necessarily correct a problem at that instant but try to train against a problem after we see it arise. It is a little backwards than normal thinking but for me it has produced a reliable result in my little bit of training.
I guess I am Amish. My training tools are a flat collar leash, treats(sparingly), bumpers, and a chuck it for reinforcing stops at about 100 yards.
I am not anti force or pro PR. I am pro well trained dog and this is the style that has made sense to me

[white quacker]

Do you run your dogs in any form of retriever tests or performance venures? AKC? UKC? Hunt test? Field Trial? Agility? Obedience?

[FEETDOWN]

I was afraid this would turn into some such bullshit.

Mud, here's the deal, peedee asked about FF. I asked him a question about his expectations and he gave me this answer.

To be the best..I Plan on going as far in hunt tests as our potential allows.

You stated in your first post, I believe it was, that Milners program could consistently produce SH and HR level dogs. Ummmm, pardon me, but that is hardly what this feller said he wanted. He said he wanted "to be the best". SH and HR, while very capable, and probably more dog than 90% of people have, aren't "the best" by any means.

[white quacker]

Look as Feet pointed out the man said his goal was to be the best. Milner is good for the weekend warrior, 3 hunts a year type of average joe duck hunter, but one cannot dispute the shortcomings in the method of training for high-end gun dogs. I am the type that is all about proof and numbers, and the proof and numbers are in other training methods. Milner has made himself a pile of money with his "way of doing things" no doubt. But for what the orginal poster stated Milner's approach would not be well suited, IMHO.

Mud, I invite you to train anytime you want. I'll get FEET out there and some other fools, hell I'll even let you borrow my heeling stick if you would like.

[white quacker]

Pee Dee

I apologize for dicking up your FF thread. I will be glad to be of any and all help I can be. Be it on here via pm, the phone, or come training some time. I was fortunate enough to have generous guys that helped and taught me, it is the least I can do. If we got Birdawg's wild child handling, the sky is the limit haha!! Good luck with a fun journey and let me know if I can help.l

[Birddawg]

Mud, I invite you to train anytime you want. I'll get FEET out there and some other fools, hell I'll even let you borrow my heeling stick if you would like.

May I attend this event?

Pee Dee

I apologize for dicking up your FF thread. I will be glad to be of any and all help I can be. Be it on here via pm, the phone, or come training some time. I was fortunate enough to have generous guys that helped and taught me, it is the least I can do. If we got Birdawg's wild child handling, the sky is the limit haha!! Good luck with a fun journey and let me know if I can help.l

That's because he is properly force fetched.

[mudminnow]

Yeah pee dee sorry for messing up the thread. I just wanted to point you to a source that does not ff. if you want a mh the most predictable way is to follow a proven result in that field. Do research and pick a program that works for you. But I do predict many mh's in the future when pr training for gun dogs progresses. Make a goal and go for it. My goal is to have a retriever that is steady to 100 birds in the decoys and to be able to go for a long unseen cripple when shorter easier marks are around.
For the clicker comment. I was able to shape a return to heel with a hold in two five minute sessions. It works to an extent but it is not the magic bullet. I am looking into running akc and maybe hrc events in the future. But right now a five month old baby would not be fun to travel with. I am training my pups on agility a couple times a week. I am not against anybody training any way. We all want a well trained dog.

[Truckman]

I am by no means a good dog trainer, but I could use PR with my fire breathing yella mutt and I would still be trying to get him sit. And that force to hold is another word for force fetch, hints the "force".
Peedee good luck with the pup and as it has already been said if you need help just ask. With out alot of the people on here I would still be in far left field. We will be having a training/club trial in July, we will post up the date and location and would love to have you come and play.

[white quacker]

You offer the man an invite and he doesn't even acknowledge it. Geez guess I'll start practicing throwing pup-peroni down the bank to reward him for staying in the water!!! Its all in good fun MUD and if it can't be fun then why do it!!

[Truckman]

^^^^

[pee dee]

Y'all keep discussing I'm learning. I may actually be moving to charleston in the fall, and it will be a lot different for me not being able to walk out of my back door and having ponds and fields to train in. I look forward to meeting you fellas.

[Tha Dick]

Pee Dee

I apologize for dicking up your FF thread.

Why you got to use my name in vane???!!!

Pee Dee, YES FF is a must.

[Tha Dick]

hell I'll even let you borrow my heeling stick if you would like.

But right now a five month old baby would not be fun to travel with.

White quacker, give him a couple mo months. When they start into dem teenage years he might take you up on it.

[mudminnow]

sorry about that, thanks for the invite. I have been trying to get to the cherokee foothills training days, but carrying around my son in a baby bjorn while training dogs is a recipe for a mad wife. I will also add that positive reinforcement is my main way of training retrieving, but in the house when i can give a swift correction at the correct time i will use a positive punishment. I like talking about this stuff and use more than just treats to train my dogs. Maybe in a couple years time will open up and i can run some retriever games, but until then i will keep trying to train a dog that is a useful tool in the field and a joy in the duck blind

[white quacker]

Punishment is not the word, and that may be the cause of much of this discussion. Reninforcement would be the correct term here.