manipulated grain fields

[tradorion]

OK- will preface this with i haven't gotten all the way through this thread yet- but figured i'd rock the boat early so that by the time i got to the end i''d have some more fun stuff to read.

I AGREE WITH NAB- (oh shit, did i really say that??) about the dove thing (which bleeds over to the duck thing a little i guess). I grew up hunting top sewn wheat. When they went over to the new "federally approved" baiting laws "those who can" are now allowed to put out more food than those who top sewed wheat were EVER allowed. Tell me that was not a product of having the "ability" to influence the right people...

Layman's solution- BAIT BAIT and MORE BAIT. Allow baiting. top sewing, and any other method of feeding that a creative mind can come up with. Then adjust the price tag:

Unplugged shotgun? $1,000.00 thanks for playing
Every bird over the limit? $500-$1,000.00
Late/Early Shooting $500.00 for every 5min over
Lead Shot? $1,000.00

ya'll get the point. level the field- let EVERYBODY feed em up good and proper and then hammer the ass of those that don't play by the other established rules.

[mirroman]

With enough LEOS that would be an excellent idea Trad...

[Nab]

And lower the limits so we would not be impacting our breeding stock!
This is what should have been done with the dove situation too!

[Wampuskat]

I can't believe we're actually seeing a game warden advocate baiting and put it on the same level as planting/flooding an impoundment! Way to strap 'em on and speak your mind, Trad! lol

Of course we all know there is about as much chance the law will be changed as old trad laying the pipe to a supermodel....

[tradorion]

OK- a few things to note.

FIRST- the thoughts and views espoused by Ole Uncle Trad are MINE AND MINE ALONE (although this same comment/suggestion has been batted about and smiled on by more than one new and old GW) these thoughts are not to be construed in any way shape or form as a departmentally accepted or approved thought process.

SECOND- Laws like baiting are a creation of man NOT God so it isn't like i am saying "Get rid of the 10 Commandments".

I never said that throwing out feed was the same as planting/harvesting or setting up an impoundment. I simply advocated putting all hunters on the same even footing. Those with impoundments would have less $$ put out b/c they could simply throw out bait the same as ALL other hunters. I do note that those who have the money to set up a good field have far greater freedom in how much food they can spread than in the old days of top sewing. Interesting that fewer people have the ability to prep a good field these days but they have a greater freedom of what and how much food can be put out.

And before someone starts the "listen to the poor vs. rich bitchin"- i know all the ins and outs of getting friends together and setting up a good field. These comments are directed in regards to the elimination of a practice that in doing so effectively eliminated a cross section of the hunting public. Someone show me how to poll SCDUCKS members and i'll bet i can shortly "prove" my "theory".

I am simply noting that the law was changed to outlaw top sewing and allow unlimited "Agriculturally Based" practices (PLEASE explain to me the "agriculutral" basis for 90% of what goes in a dove field) for feeding and then hunting birds. Back when the law was re-written i argued around the fire barrel over and over that is was those with the "ability" (read MONEY and INFLUENCE) that got the law changed rather than sound biology and a national interest in the good of hunting. My reasoning is as follows:

As Nab stated- when the powers that be ended top sewing wheat other methods of lowering harvest numbers- namely lower bag limits and shorter seasons- were pushed aside in favor of a method that effectively eliminated a cross section of the general hunting public. Gone are the vast majority of Labor Day Family events where you had pot luck lunch on the tailgate, listened to the ball game, and shot a few doves.

Suggesting that it might be time to consider a different approach to the current baiting laws is no more heresy that the initial "outlaw top sewing" was.

Mirro- i would offer this on the number of Game Wardens: There will NEVER be enough GW's to effectively (read catch MOST of the bad guys) enforce ANY law. Where there is a will there is a way, most crooks get away with it. That being said, those GW's that are there are usually working hard to catch law breakers and adjusting a law simply means another aspect of the job to be applied. Each year we gain and lose laws on the books, rarely is there a coinciding loss of gain of Wardens to cover each new shift in law.

T

[mirroman]

Absolutely understood... I can only dream of the day that hunters ( and I use the term loosely) can police themselves...

[JABIII]

I couldn't agree more with your thoughts on dove field management. Clemson University's extension office screwed the hunters of South Carolina royally on that one. They are the ones that came up with the ruling that made top sewing wheat illegal in SC. I have not been on 5 dove shoots since the practice was outlawed and have not had a dove field myself in years....

As for baiting for waterfowl, I have long said on here that it would level the playing field if we could somehow spread corn evenly over large areas such as Sparkleberry. It would help ducks and it would for damn sure help duck hunters. But pouring corn out of a sack into a small hole ain't even the same game as hunting flooded ag fields. The former is nothing but unadulterated slaughter.

Take a helicopter and spread the grain from one end of the swamp to the other or along miles of shoreline on a lake and the ducks have plenty of choices of where to land. There is nothing unsporting about that and it should be legal...

[tradorion]

Now theres a thought JAB- hadn't even considered that point of view.

Just for a giggle on your thought we could put a couple of Rednecks (reckon we could find one or two on the site to help out??) give them a good shovel and a pile of corn in back of a C-130- it does low sorties over the swamp and G-town marsh with them shoveling as fast as they can go!

[JABIII]

Lol! That would work.

I always thought that you could use one of those deals they use to fertilize trees from the air by chopper or aerial seed by plane as I have seen done in Arkansas.

[Nab]

JABIII - you're talking about putting food over a large area now?! This is alot like the bait stations of a few years back except no hunting would have been allowed close to them!
Don't know if you've seen the idea on the WMA ideas thread, but check it out - we would be putting out feed in a pretty large area before and after the season - and following all the laws. THIS IS JUST AN IDEA!
I do disagree with the bait/slaughter statement - the exact same this can happen in an impoundment, flooded timber, a flooded ag field - where no bait is - if you have a bunch of birds and take the time to watch and pattern them - baiting does not always have to mean a slaughter - just like the above situations don't always mean a lawful hunt.
Damn, ya'll ar1e taking my arial seeding of the swamp idea now - a plane could plant alot of
area quickly - jap millet would be great - the tweet birds will make sure it got spread around to other areas and even supply the fertilizer!

[JABIII]

The argument over the bait stations was not whether it was right or wrong, it was whether it was legal or illegal. It was and is illegal.

Just like the spreading of corn via the air would be. Illegal.

[tradorion]

NAB- you lost the jist of this- its a JOKE (although one based on a serious thread of thought).

Under the current laws you'd play hell pulling
it off... this was a "What IF" scenario based on a shifting in the law not a "We Could Do This" idea for the newly proposed WMA.

Also- JAB is more correct than you on the "slaughter" statement in regards to corning a few small holes. In order to slaughter ducks your way USUALLY requires alot of time and effort invested to find the ducks and set it up. The corning of a small area greatly reduces the time invested and increases the chances of killing more ducks with less effort.

EXAMPLE- spend hours maybe days or weeks looking for the one sweet hole- find it and then hunt it OR walk out back (or go to a good swamp hole) and then corn it well- most folks can see where the second is more likely to allow you to kill more ducks with less effort.

[JABIII]

Ooops. Missed part of your post.

There are 2 problems associated with baiting public land these days.

1. Legality. If someone was to hunt it, even out of season, the agency that allowed the baiting would be in violation as the Federal laws were written a few years ago. The man who put the corn out would be as guilty as the guy who hunted over it. I don't know how you get around this one.

2. Aflatoxin. We all should have learned a lot from the Diamond Dog food scare. How would you like to be the guy that dumped corn out on a WMA and killed a few thousand ducks? This one can easily be remedied by making sure that ALL corn dumped on public waters is certified by the Agricultural Department.

[Nab]

trad - I got it!
The idea of seeding jap millet is one that could work - and this is spreading it for planting purposes - not baiting - it would be spread in the summer.
I also agree that a slaughter would most like take place over bait that anywhere else, but it happens in other cases also.
The idea of putting out corn in the swamp would be done at a time when it would be legal.
The alpatoxin problem could happen where it is grown and flooded also.

[JABIII]

"The idea of seeding jap millet is one that could work - and this is spreading it for planting purposes - not baiting - it would be spread in the summer."

As long as you had permission from the DNR WMA manager I can see no legality issues here.


"The idea of putting out corn in the swamp would be done at a time when it would be legal."

Reread my post above. There is no "legal" time that would allow it without burdening DNR with serious liability issues.


"The alpatoxin problem could happen where it is grown and flooded also."

You better believe that it can. Those who don't irrigate their corn in South Carolina risk aflatoxin breakouts every dry year...

[Catdaddy]

Originally posted by Nab:
The idea of seeding jap millet is one that could work - and this is spreading it for planting purposes - not baiting - it would be spread in the summer.

<font size="-1" face="verdana,arial,helv">It sounds good in theory but the seed would need to fall in the transition zone between the smartweed covered sloughs and the shade of the trees on the ridges. This means there would be a monumental waste of seed with aerial seeding.


Alot of folks don't realize that there is wild annual millets and grasses already growing in that transition zone. Jap millet does compete well with these type plants.

[DUCKMAN]

Seasons and limits are set on the average annual harvest and man-days hunted - the same data was looked at prior to the new method of harvest management.

If you allowed baiting - to maintain the present harvest in North America - the limit would be one and the season would be about 2 weeks!

Seasons and limits have never been based on everyone killing a limit everyday and to think so is bad science/biology.

Trad stick to enforcing the game laws and leave the science to the biologist(wish our DNR Board and our legislators would do the same!)

JAB is 100% correct - Clemson University wrote the policy on top-sewn wheat following other states doing the same. That was a sad day when even the biologist stated that harvest has ZERO effect on the annual population of the morning dove as nature takes an average of 90% every year - whether they are hunted or NOT! Again - biologist did not make this decision!

[tradorion]

Fun thing about The Net- we all get to wear whatever hat we want to try on... So on this site we get to all be serious duck killerz, part time biologists and GW's, and above all else we all get to thump our chest that OUR IDEA is THE BEST IDEA or our opinion is of more value than the next fellows...

Ducky- I am well aware of what statistics are officially looked at when it comes to making recommendations and writing the laws.

I am also very aware that the official statement on how things are done versus the real world approach to influence is not always the whole truth and nothing but...

While allowing baiting of doves would require lowering the season and/or bag limits it would open the playing field a little wider to who hunts. And methinks your projection of a "2week season with a bag limit of One" is based on just about as much Real Science/DuckyMan's Opinion
as my suggestion to freely open baiting. Thanks for your opinion- i'll not make my own thoughts known on what you should stick to while i stick to enforcement. [img]graemlins/fu.gif[/img]

With that said I will continue to offer my own ideas on some of the different things that come up on-board.

At least we all agree that Clemson dropped the ball in this case.

T

[Nab]

And who got them to put in there what they wanted?

[Wampuskat]

Why do y'all always have to blame everything on Clemson? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I have always heard that the issue of top sowing was pushed by the same folks within DNR that wanted to take away shooting doves in the morning the first week of the season. They said "easier enforcement" for the GWs....sounds more like laziness to me. I wonder how many retrievers die each year due to heat exhaustion because of this stupid ruling? Maybe Trad was around when this was unfolding and can tell us more about it.