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Thread: Battle for Debordieu

  1. #21
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    The impact of the groins cannot in any sense be "minimized", if they are going to do what they are designed and intended to do, ie., imprison sand that would otherwise move naturally along the coast. It is a finite resource. Box it up in one place, another place is deprived of it. Simple math. The beach is owned by the public (I know how the notion of public property chaps some of your asses). These groins are to be built on public property, with the express purpose of appropriating a public resource for private use.

    If it was the other way around, these very property owners would be squealing about takings and filing lawsuits.

    And if by "streamlining" the permitting process, you mean making sure the permitting process doesn't impede anybody's development plans, stacking the board with contractors is indeed "huge".

  2. #22
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    People have known that shore lines move way before any of use were even alive. If people build a house that close to the water they should have to live with their choice.

  3. #23
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    Default Effects of Groins

    Enjoy North Inlet now. It may never be the same.
    Last edited by jay12clay; 06-12-2011 at 06:42 PM.

  4. #24
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    Default Groins

    I'm not familiar with this specific project but construction of the groins will not proceed without State (401 & CZC) and federal authorization (Department of the Army Individual Permit). Obtaining SCDHEC/OCRM approval is only half the battle. The Feds will require an EIS and solicit comments, public and agency, before authorizing the project under section 404.

    Sand can be pumped 'around' groins to facilitate littoral transport.

    DHEC needed/needs it.
    Haley, who has said she wants to help businesses by cutting red tape at DHEC, picked all new members for the agency board after taking office in January.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by fro View Post
    Haley, who has said she wants to help businesses by cutting red tape at DHEC, picked all new members for the agency board after taking office in January. - this is huge! And it appears to be working. SCDHEC has been a broken agency for a long time. There has long been the need to stream line the permitting process. Now if she could do something with the federal regulators!
    This was an act of stupidity by the governor. She sells board appointments like they were country club memberships. DHEC deals with a lot of complicated things. Replacing all of the board members means there is no one on the board with experience to make decisions that often involve a great deal scientific study. DHEC gets blamed for a lot of crap. Permits take forever to get because (until they raised the appeals fee about a year ago), anyone with $25 could slow the process down by appealing the permits. The problem with DHEC is not the board, it is the appeals process. Most of the permits DHEC deals with are also Federal permits. If DHEC didn't do the permits the feds would. You haven't seen slow until you deal with the federal agencies. Besides, I don't know what needs streamlining. The regulations were written by politicians to favor developers, the board has always taken the side of the developers, and the courts favor developers. What more do you want? It is similar to the all too familiar discussions about DNR. You have politicians making decisions that should be made by scientists.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salt Creek View Post
    You haven't seen slow until you deal with the federal agencies.... You have politicians making decisions that should be made by scientists.
    Good post
    Last edited by TennDan; 06-12-2011 at 09:02 PM.

  7. #27
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    "Not sure what the effects would be to North Island?"

    Lets see...

    Debordieu losing beach/sand.

    Pawley's has groins.

    Go figure.
    One tends to learn more when using ones eyes and ears....instead of running their mouth!

  8. #28
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    North Inlet is then only significant inlet and associated estuarine system on the US east coast that is undeveloped and relatively pollution free. It is a jewel, and a defining feature of SC. That the Board would approve these groins is a perfect example of just what a joke DHEC is, and has always been. Haley's Board consists of two commercial contractors, a retired executive from BASF Chemicals, the owners of a medical supply company and a multi-media company, a dentist, and a doctor. All big contributors, I'm sure.

    I wonder how many scientists she has appointed to the General Contractor's Board?

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salt Creek View Post
    The problem with DHEC is not the board, it is the appeals process. Most of the permits DHEC deals with are also Federal permits. If DHEC didn't do the permits the feds would.

    You haven't seen slow until you deal with the federal agencies. Besides, I don't know what needs streamlining.
    I too have no knowledge of this specific project, but projects like this keep my lights on, food in my mouth, and cloths on my back... I deal with the state and feds daily and should be doing it right now....

    By overhauling/streamlining I was not specifically pointing out Gov. Haley's board appointments as much as the changes that need to be made on the project manager side of SCDHEC and/or OCRM! If I am submit a permit to SDHEC and OCRM it runs on three public notices including teh one the applicant has to run for 2 weeks. I also must satisfy CZM, 401, the Feds prior to the land disturbance application will be looked at. That a minimum of 3 different SCDHEC project managers who do not know their own regulations and do not communicate internally... Majority of my time is spent chasing the project managers around to ensure they are doing their jobs! Which rarely they are.... Why not have to deal with 1 OCRM pm, not 3, and 1 SDHEC pm that would handle land disturbance and 401? It is a complete circle jerk! The main reason it is expensive to permit a natural resource project is right here on the state level! I haven't even touched on the frustrations of the Feds! I have come to accept the feds being ridicules and lazy, but generally USACE is much easier to deal with v/s the state, for me anyway...

    Then you have the special interest groups who are funded to the gills with super deep pockets. Majority of the ones I that block projects as such are made up of rich hippies who live by the moto "not in my back yard" or "I got mine, but you can't have yours" and have nothing better to do than slow or block progress!

    Quote Originally Posted by TennDan View Post
    I'm not familiar with this specific project but construction of the groins will not proceed without State (401 & CZC) and federal authorization (Department of the Army Individual Permit). Obtaining SCDHEC/OCRM approval is only half the battle. The Feds will require an EIS and solicit comments, public and agency, before authorizing the project under section 404.
    Pretty sure once a project gets to this point it has satisfied the federal requirements you speak of... SCDHEC or OCRM will not approve or hardly look at project (401, czm, land disturbance) unless you have your approval from USACE. The Board will not even consider hearing a project unless all State and Federal requirements have been satisfied. When the Board hears a project once it has been appealed and after everything has been satisfied, this is where the state law, such as Coastal Tidelands and Wetland Act in this case, legal opinion is and arguments for the project as written by law is interpreted. If a project has been appealed by someone or a group and has to go before the board this pretty much a done deal of the permitting process, do or die time. Next step is Administrative Law Judge for this project... The Board has ruled that the project, as proposed is within the law as written.

    Sounds like it is just getting good and the Coastal Conservation League may have actually met their match with a project that has pockets just as deep as theirs and folks willing and able to take them to the mat! If the law is the problem then change them, this is what CCL doesn't understand or operate on! They and other interest groups use every way possible to make the applicant exhaust all their resources fighting them therefore killing the project by sucking the applicant dry when they should focus on changing the laws as they are written! I have seen it over and over and over again on personal projects my family has been involved with and in my professional career! Good project that will have a huge economic impact to a depressed down area just go away because they can not afford to go any further and battle the special interest groups! They will suck you dry!

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wad Shooter View Post
    When you place groins or jetties that interrupt this flow, the area north of the structure will grow while the areas to the immediate south will erode.
    This sounds like a card game we used to play called "fuck your buddy" or "screw your neighbor".
    Quote Originally Posted by quackaddict View Post
    kyle parker does suck. does it bother anyone else when they show him on the sidelines and all he is doing is sitting by himself running his fingers through that nappy ass hair of his?

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chessbay View Post
    Looks like it got approved.

    Wealthy beachfront landowners get DHEC go-ahead



    By SAMMY FRETWELL - sfretwell@thestate.com



    South Carolina’s environmental protection board sided with affluent seaside landowners Thursday in approving a beach restoration plan that critics say could hurt research at an acclaimed science laboratory near Georgetown.

    In its first major decision under Gov. Nikki Haley, the S.C. Department of Health and Environmental Control board voted unanimously to let property owners in the exclusive Debordieu community build metal walls in the ocean to trap sand. Haley appointed the new board this year.

    The walls, known as groins, are supposed to protect some $20 million in oceanfront property by keeping the beach at Debordieu from eroding as quickly as it has in the past. About 20 property owners, whose land is routinely hit by the sea as the beach washes away, would benefit directly from the proposal to renourish the south end of Debordieu and install three groins.



    The tip of Debordieu Island can be seen from North Island, a nesting ground for Oyster Catchers, Royal Terns and Least terns. Wealthy landowners at Debordieu Beach are fighting to slow down erosion on their seashore, but their proposal is drawing fire from scientists, who say the erosion plan could damage a nationally known research area just down the coast. The Baruch research area is one of the nation's few pristine, undisturbed salt marsh systems.
    - Kim Kim Foster-Tobin /kkfoster@thestate.com


    Experts hired by environmental groups and the Baruch Foundation said the plan might slow beach erosion at Debordieu, but it would undoubtedly increase erosion just downstream at North Inlet’s two-mile long beach. The Baruch Foundation owns and protects the North Inlet area for research by the University of South Carolina and other colleges.




    Some 75 feet of beach could erode at North Inlet if the groins are installed at Debordieu, the DHEC board was told.

    “What this case involves is competing property rights,’’ environmental lawyer Amy Armstrong said. “It boils down to the transfer of the risk from Debordieu onto the Baruch Foundation property.’’

    Thursday’s vote upholds a DHEC staff decision to approve the groins.

    Debordieu representatives said the project won’t hurt the North Inlet area. But Armstrong, who heads the S.C. Environmental Law Project, said she will appeal the decision.

    The North Inlet research area, between Georgetown and Debordieu, is unusual because it is virtually pollution free. In addition to USC’s Baruch Marine Field Laboratory, North Inlet is also part of a federal estuarine research reserve. Any development upstream could affect years of scientific research, critics of the plan say. Since 1969, scientists working through the Baruch laboratory have completed more than 650 research projects and at least 70 are under way now.

    Debordieu, the only developed area next to North Inlet, is a gated seaside community of more than 1,000 homes and lots between Georgetown and Pawleys Island. Many homes are valued at more than $1 million.

    DHEC board members made their decision swiftly Thursday, soon after meeting privately for more than 30 minutes.

    Haley, who has said she wants to help businesses by cutting red tape at DHEC, picked all new members for the agency board after taking office in January.

    Allen Amsler, a Columbia construction company executive who chairs the board, said the Debordieu beach restoration plan met the legal criteria for a groin project. Amsler said he did not see a “detrimental effect’’ on Baruch’s beachfront downstream.

    Amsler said the board’s private discussions involved “strictly legal questions of our attorney.’’ DHEC lawyer Carl Roberts said state law allows the board to deliberate permit appeals in closed session.

    Ellison Smith, an attorney representing the Debordieu Colony Community Association, said the groin project will protect homes that are vital to Georgetown County. Debordieu produced some $10 million in county taxes last year, he said. The approximately 22 homes and lots in the “area of severe erosion” are valued at $20 million, Smith said.

    At Debordieu, about a dozen of the imperiled homes are behind a seawall that juts far onto the beach at the community’s eroding south end. Waves routinely hit the wall.

    Oceanfront landowner John L. Jackson, who lives in Lower Richland County, said no one wants to hurt the Baruch property. But he and a Debordieu neighbor, Lanning Risher of Camden, said they need help.

    Smith agreed.

    “Unless this project goes forward, the chances of anybody selling a piece of property along the beachfront of Debordieu is remote, in my opinion,’’ Smith said.




    Read more: http://www.thestate.com/2011/06/10/1...#ixzz1OsQMAPt2



    Lived on the south beach of debordieu up until we sold our house a few months ago. our house was a stone throws distance from the seawall. big waves would shake our whole house. took us a few years to get rid of it but finally did, thank god!!!
    "May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't." The late great General Patton

    "The education of a man is never completed until he dies." General Robert E. Lee

    "You never know how strong you are until being strong is the only choice."

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salt Creek View Post
    This was an act of stupidity by the governor. She sells board appointments like they were country club memberships. DHEC deals with a lot of complicated things. Replacing all of the board members means there is no one on the board with experience to make decisions that often involve a great deal scientific study. DHEC gets blamed for a lot of crap. Permits take forever to get because (until they raised the appeals fee about a year ago), anyone with $25 could slow the process down by appealing the permits. The problem with DHEC is not the board, it is the appeals process. Most of the permits DHEC deals with are also Federal permits. If DHEC didn't do the permits the feds would. You haven't seen slow until you deal with the federal agencies. Besides, I don't know what needs streamlining. The regulations were written by politicians to favor developers, the board has always taken the side of the developers, and the courts favor developers. What more do you want? It is similar to the all too familiar discussions about DNR. You have politicians making decisions that should be made by scientists.
    Certainly not throwing rocks at you, but I would guess you've never had to wait on DHEC to review, approve and release a simple sanitary permit for construction. Oh, but wait! You can pay them an additionaly 5 grand and they'll accelerate the approval process a few days.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMAC View Post
    The impact of the groins cannot in any sense be "minimized", if they are going to do what they are designed and intended to do, ie., imprison sand that would otherwise move naturally along the coast. It is a finite resource. Box it up in one place, another place is deprived of it. Simple math. The beach is owned by the public (I know how the notion of public property chaps some of your asses). These groins are to be built on public property, with the express purpose of appropriating a public resource for private use.

    If it was the other way around, these very property owners would be squealing about takings and filing lawsuits.

    And if by "streamlining" the permitting process, you mean making sure the permitting process doesn't impede anybody's development plans, stacking the board with contractors is indeed "huge".
    Are they going to be taking the sand and putting it on "private property?"

    OR......

    Are they taking the sand and keeping it on "Public Property?"
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn View Post
    Does Elton John know you have his shotgun?

  14. #34
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    The was I understand it, both.
    Gettin old is for pussies! AND MY NEW TRUE people say like Capt. Tom >>>>>>>>>/
    "Wow, often imitated but never duplicated. No one can do it like the master. My hat is off to you DRDUCK!"

  15. #35
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    You understand they are putting the sand on Private Property?
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn View Post
    Does Elton John know you have his shotgun?

  16. #36
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    Wouldn't it have been something if the Vanderbilt's had followed the Baruch's and protected Debidue as Hobcaw was protected?

  17. #37
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    or if the Guggemheim's would have preserved Daniel Island.....the number of deer killed there at the predevelopment hunts were incredible....they would not let us survey while they rode em up on the ponys
    Bone....

  18. #38
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    Or if we had kept those stinking yankees from getting their filthy paws on all that ground in the first place?

  19. #39
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    yes sir yes sir
    Bone....

  20. #40
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    Those places wouldn't exist without those stinking yankees.

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