SCDNR Deer Survey-# of Bucks

[FBT]

good post.

[DMP]

Lot of discussion here about what the deer herd is or isn't, but so far I haven't read a post (haven't read all of them though) that discussed fawn recruitment. If you don't know what your fawn recruitment is, you DO NOT know what is going on with your herd or how to manage it. What is your deer density? What is your doe to fawn ratio? Buck to doe ratio? How have you determined it?

I can tell you this......the place that I work is quite large and has been as intensely and scientifically managed for deer (and other wildlife) as any place that I know of in SC. Our deer population was once healthy and abundant, yet in about 5 years it dropped to next to nothing, all because we continued to kill deer like we always had for decades and failed to see the influence of coyotes. All conventional wisdom at the time said that the coyote had very little impact on deer populations. Right now, coyotes are killing about 70-80 percent of our fawns. Since we discovered this we have drastically changed our harvest. We are very slowly recovering, but the deer density is still only 14 deer per sq. mi. Our fawn recruitment is somewhere between .3 and .4 which means that it is taking around 2.5 does to get one fawn to make it to October.

Do you really know what is going on with your deer herd? If you don't, I would suggest that you start measuring it before you shoot yourself out of a deer herd and then blame the DNR.

BTW, if you think that the DNR brought in a whole bunch of coyotes into this state, talk with the hunters in Ga. They have a worse coyote problem than we do. Where did theirs come from?

Great post.

Our club is 2100 acres with another 6000 around us and we keep up with all deer sightings and keep record of it whether doe, buck or fawn and looking at these records over the years the deer herd has declined in our area. We only kill bucks with 4 pts on one side and to the ears so we aren't mowing down bucks by any means. Our cameras and sightings noticed a big drop in fawns yet we were only killing the # of does each year that was recommended by DNR based off of our yearly sighting #s. One thing we were seeing a lot of was yotes and still are so we started laying off the does and I can say that this year I am seeing a lot more fawns in our cam pics.

What does all of this tell me? It tells me that between yotes and hunters that to many deer were being killed. Now is this same problem going on across the state, I don't know but I know it is in my area. I talk to more and more people in the upstate who say they are seeing less and less deer each year.

Don't know if any of this makes a point or not but something needs to change.

[Mobetter]

Lot of discussion here about what the deer herd is or isn't, but so far I haven't read a post (haven't read all of them though) that discussed fawn recruitment. If you don't know what your fawn recruitment is, you DO NOT know what is going on with your herd or how to manage it. What is your deer density? What is your doe to fawn ratio? Buck to doe ratio? How have you determined it?

I can tell you this......the place that I work is quite large and has been as intensely and scientifically managed for deer (and other wildlife) as any place that I know of in SC. Our deer population was once healthy and abundant, yet in about 5 years it dropped to next to nothing, all because we continued to kill deer like we always had for decades and failed to see the influence of coyotes. All conventional wisdom at the time said that the coyote had very little impact on deer populations. Right now, coyotes are killing about 70-80 percent of our fawns. Since we discovered this we have drastically changed our harvest. We are very slowly recovering, but the deer density is still only 14 deer per sq. mi. Our fawn recruitment is somewhere between .3 and .4 which means that it is taking around 2.5 does to get one fawn to make it to October.

Do you really know what is going on with your deer herd? If you don't, I would suggest that you start measuring it before you shoot yourself out of a deer herd and then blame the DNR.

BTW, if you think that the DNR brought in a whole bunch of coyotes into this state, talk with the hunters in Ga. They have a worse coyote problem than we do. Where did theirs come from?

Awesome post.

[tarri]

mobetter you are not the only one seeing this. i live in laurens county and hunt newberry, laurens and union. for the past 2-3 years been seeing 3-4 does without a fawn for everyone with. used to be every doe had two.
that being said, it is not a bad thing that we have less deer. with the execption to the northeastern and northwestern parts of this state, there have been way to many deer for way to long. hunters liked it and it has become everyone's expectaion to see and kill alot of deer. nothing about the deer population is static though. just with the habitat changes alone in the piedmont, there are going to be less deer. the masssive clearclut of the timber companies are gone and that land base is being managed by investment groups for longer rotations....result, less habitat, crp is 20 years old, less habitat.

you guys should listen up to the mobetter post, if you are in a part of the state where not much has changed, maybe your deer numbers haven't, but the fawn recruitment issue is real and the studies i've seen show it is a problem eveywhere it has been looked at.
the biggest problem with fawn survival is early predation. this is not an issue in the west because most of the fawns and calves come in a very short window so there is a better chance that more of them survive. with the screwed up breeding season we have here, and yes it is adversely affected by over buck harvest, we have fawns hitting the group for the better part of 6 months so as individuals, there are much more succeptatble to opportunistic predation. it is a shame that 85% of the buck harvest in this state is of 1.5 old deer and younger.
if i owned 10 properties scatterrd around several counties and spent a lot of time and money managing i would want to opportunity to harvest any mature buck that i had the opportunity too. that being said i do not support a random limit of 10 bucks. there needs to be a way to relate buck harvest to the landbase being hunted. if you understand anything about deer biology you get the concept of dispersal and that alone will lead to the overharvest of bucks if there is not some restriction in place. as far as the health of the herd, the less deer we have, the healthier it will be.
you can have a really healthy herd and not see deer everytime you hunt, but if we continue to over harvest bucks then it unrealistic with the recruitment we are seeing to think that buck/doe ratio can rebalance itself evry year....which will only further the problems with untimely breeding.

[britton40]

Not a valid argument. Look at williamsburg and the other low country counties that have "as many or more" deer. They bait. Perhaps you should include # of acres of habitat, hunting pressure, etc.

BTW, did they survey by plane or by using 8 of 12 pairs of boots on the ground? Telecheck? Check in stations. Helicopters? Hunter surveys?

Look at a map. Do you see all the game management in Newberry County? Newberry and Williamsburg are both small towns counties with lots of farming and timber property.


The 2008 Deer Hunter Survey represents a random mail survey that involved a single mail-out. The questionnaire for the 2008 Deer Hunter Survey was developed by Wildlife Section personnel (Figure 1). The mailing list database was constructed by randomly selecting 25,000 known Big Game Permit holders that included 5 license types, the first 3 of which have a Big Game Permit included. The license types included: (1) Resident Sportsman’s, (2) Resident Combination, (3) Resident Junior Sportsman’s, (4) Resident Big Game Permit, and (5) Non-resident Big Game Permit. The number of individuals associated with each license type was based on an attempted sampling rate of approximately 15 percent for licenses purchased through December of 2008. Since deer seasons statewide end on January 1 there was no need to sample individuals that were licensed thereafter.
Statistical analysis was conducted using Statistix 7 (Analytical Software, Tallahassee, FL).

[PBiz]

Shooting too many bucks prior to the rut is a problem. It causes alot of stress on the remaining bucks. Most states seasons starts right before the rut and only lasts a few weeks. It's like duck management....reduce the days afield and you reduce the harvest.

Cat,
In know way am I trying to discredit your knowledge and opinion with this next post. I respect you very much as a veteran hunter/killer. And this is not meant to be my typical dumbshit post. But, do you think there would be more stress on a buck have to fight off all these other hard dick bucks during the rut? Or if he had his choice of multiple shots of leg and got to breed from Sept to Jan?

So, in all actuality, I'm doing the deer herd a favor by killing more bucks than does.. Less competition for doe tail amongst the fellas and taking these poor animals out of there memory before their trailcam picture can be ridiculed and questioned on a website full of re tards.

[3chunter]

Yep Isn't healthy to have hurt bucks running around! And qdm people thought they had it figured out.

[Sportin' Woodies]

aint many slutty does.
imagine balancing 15 high maintanance women.
shit would be stressful, unless buck had a facebook.

[3chunter]

Not a problem unless he got dial-up

[quack head 11]

got a questions for you, what do you do for a living?

i have let plenty of 120 class deer walk but if i want to kill one it sure aint going to hurt anything but your feelings

I am an underwear model............g string underwear

You can shoot all the 120's you want. Aint gonna hurt my feelings. IMO a 120" buck with the current rules/regs is a VERY nice deer for SC.

I can tell you I aint picking up the bow for a 120" buck in Ohio or Indiana

[quack head 11]

Lot of discussion here about what the deer herd is or isn't, but so far I haven't read a post (haven't read all of them though) that discussed fawn recruitment. If you don't know what your fawn recruitment is, you DO NOT know what is going on with your herd or how to manage it. What is your deer density? What is your doe to fawn ratio? Buck to doe ratio? How have you determined it?

I can tell you this......the place that I work is quite large and has been as intensely and scientifically managed for deer (and other wildlife) as any place that I know of in SC. Our deer population was once healthy and abundant, yet in about 5 years it dropped to next to nothing, all because we continued to kill deer like we always had for decades and failed to see the influence of coyotes. All conventional wisdom at the time said that the coyote had very little impact on deer populations. Right now, coyotes are killing about 70-80 percent of our fawns. Since we discovered this we have drastically changed our harvest. We are very slowly recovering, but the deer density is still only 14 deer per sq. mi. Our fawn recruitment is somewhere between .3 and .4 which means that it is taking around 2.5 does to get one fawn to make it to October.

Do you really know what is going on with your deer herd? If you don't, I would suggest that you start measuring it before you shoot yourself out of a deer herd and then blame the DNR.

BTW, if you think that the DNR brought in a whole bunch of coyotes into this state, talk with the hunters in Ga. They have a worse coyote problem than we do. Where did theirs come from?

Good post.

Alot of people dont believe it, but these damn feral pigs will eat the shit out of fawns too.

Question

I read the survey you are talking about and seen some videos on it. Once they were radio collared and found dead, how was it determined what killed the fawn? I know the yotes got the blame but I never read if or how that was determined

[PBiz]

I can tell you I aint picking up the bow for a 120" buck in Ohio or Indiana

Who gives a right nut about Ohio, Indiana, or a bow?

Regardless how deer are "managed" in SC, 5 1/2 yr old deer in SC will be lucky to score in the 130s.... So not shooting cowhorns or 4pts isn't gonna shake a magic, medicine dick and turn them from pumpkins into Lee and Tiffany's trophy room...

I thought you were a hog hunter anyway

[quack head 11]

Who gives a right nut about Ohio, Indiana, or a bow?

Regardless how deer are "managed" in SC, 5 1/2 yr old deer in SC will be lucky to score in the 130s.... So not shooting cowhorns or 4pts isn't gonna shake a magic, medicine dick and turn them from pumpkins into Lee and Tiffany's trophy room...

I thought you were a hog hunter anyway

Im is a hog hunter! And a deer hunter too

As far as the management goes, take a look at Georgia and some of the monsters they are producing.

I mention Georgia because it is close and the habitat is the same as ours. Same type soils. And we are only seperated by the Savannah river basin
The only difference is the limits.

Lee and Tiffany get on my nerves.

Do you think Tiffany is Stan Potts love child from way back??? She seems to have a little bit of a lazy eye.....talk about genetics.

Tiffany Lacrosseye

[Sashimi]

Im is a hog hunter! And a deer hunter too

As far as the management goes, take a look at Georgia and some of the monsters they are producing.

I mention Georgia because it is close and the habitat is the same as ours. Same type soils. And we are only seperated by the Savannah river basin
The only difference is the limits.

Lee and Tiffany get on my nerves.

Do you think Tiffany is Stan Potts love child from way back??? She seems to have a little bit of a lazy eye.....talk about genetics.

Tiffany Lacrosseye

You can't compare Georgia with SC. They stocked northern strain deer back in the day, whereas we used deer from the FM to populate.

[GBelly]

jimmy thinks too much.

[quack head 11]

You can't compare Georgia with SC. They stocked northern strain deer back in the day, whereas we used deer from the FM to populate.

I will see if I can find the documents but they stocked from 1923 to 1972 I think. Goin off memory.


Some of the deer were from Wisconsin, but alot of them came from other places without the northern blood.


After this long I just dont think that is the reason. After this many years of breeding with the local deer those nothern traits have been bred out or at least watered down.

[sprigdog]

Regardless how deer are "managed" in SC, 5 1/2 yr old deer in SC will be lucky to score in the 130s.... So not shooting cowhorns or 4pts isn't gonna shake a magic, medicine dick and turn them from pumpkins into Lee and Tiffany's trophy room...

i've been agreeing with you alot lately....that sums up SC "trophy management" in a well worded paragraph.

Next topic please....how bout that 90% recovery rate?

[PBiz]

I will see if I can find the documents but they stocked from 1923 to 1972 I think. Goin off memory.


Some of the deer were from Wisconsin, but alot of them came from other places without the northern blood.


After this long I just dont think that is the reason. After this many years of breeding with the local deer those nothern traits have been bred out or at least watered down.

Nah.. They just kill 170 inch deer in South Georgia because they shoot 3 bucks and 6pts or better..

[CWPINST]

Good post.

Alot of people dont believe it, but these damn feral pigs will eat the shit out of fawns too.

Question

I read the survey you are talking about and seen some videos on it. Once they were radio collared and found dead, how was it determined what killed the fawn? I know the yotes got the blame but I never read if or how that was determined

A couple of ways.........One is the condition that the carcass is left in and the type of marks on it. Yotes will tend to bury what is left, whereas bobcats tend to hide it in a wood pile or rock pile. The most conclusive evidence comes from DNA samples that are taken on every kill.......and we usually find the carcass pretty quickly. We may have lost our first this year to a gator.

[PBiz]

ttt








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