Afica...

[BigBrother]

[ccleroy]

ROFL@Mobetter!!!!!!!!!!!

[GRN HED KILR]

Good discussion. Personally I have lost nothing over there and have no intentions of ever going, BUT if it tickles ones fancy then good for them. I am sure it helps the economy and keeps the numbers healthy. Years ago I probably would have loved it but I guess I have mellowed out and do not get a thrill of killing something just because I can pull the trigger. I still like to bow hunt and hunt waterfowl, but that suits me. I get about as much thrill watching a young 6pt walk and sitting down a group of mallards when everything is perfect than shooting everything I see. But like I said thats just me and I would never disrespect anyone that did. I think as outdoorsman we need to support hunting as a whole to keep it alive and out of the hands of extremist groups. SO I guess what I am trying to say is; would I enjoy going on a safari? probably not. Would I be against anyone going? No

[Carolina Counsel]

Well said Tater.
I hear your point, I still just cannot find sport in it.
Maybe in my mind (which may be narrowed regarding this topic...might be the only one, haha) some animals just weren't meant to be hunted.
Granted the indigenous folks of africa did traditionally hunt elephant, but hippo and big cats were not hunted.
They were respected, not taken cheaply for bragging rights or office hero shots.
These animals played a role in the ecosystem and man's desire to conquer all that moves for self satisfaction is causing them to become scarce.
Its quite possible that I stereotype those that safari hunt as egotistical. That fault is mine.
I do not hunt for food. I hunt for sport, however I do not brag when I say I think choosing wary, acrobatic waterfowl as my quarry is a little more challenging than say, a hippo.
There is no danger from the game I hunt, nor is there really any danger in hunting elephant. People shoot elephants and hippos from safe distances, even if they are out of the vehicles, the toyota is close. .

I hate to be a dick (actually, I don't), but the more you write about this subject, the more you portray your absolute ignorance of the subject. I haven't even gotten past page three and I just have to interject. You sincerely have no clue what you are writing. I have been to Africa. I have lived there and I have hunted there. I actually know about the subject.

For starters, I can appreciate that some folks don't want to go to Africa. That's not the issue that I take with your drivel. The problem I have is that you spout nonsense. To address just a few points. First, natives, including the Maasai, with whom I lived for several months, have been killing large cats for thousands of years FOR SPORT. They kill them to protect cattle from a possible threat, and they kill them to become a man. A maasai cannot become a man until he has gone out in the bush and killed a lion with his spear. That lion is turned into a head dress to show everyone how much of a badass he had become. Hero shot? Damn right it's a hero shot.

Big cats becoming scarce? Hardly. There are huntable populations of lions and leopards in most of Africa. Some countries have removed lion from the list due to political pressure rather than science. The leopard becoming scarce? The leopard can be found from the Cape to Cairo and is one of the most prolific mammals in the world.

Second point, hunting elephants is the most dangerous hunting that can be done. Shooting them from safe distances? So 15-50 feet is a safe distance from an animal which ways tons and can close that distance in mere seconds? If you don't make a perfect brain or heart/lung shot, you stand a fairly decent chance of being trampled. Further, just because you take out your target doesn't mean his friends aren't going to get you. Hunting elephants is very difficult, covering dozens of miles a day in extremely hot weather for a chance at a decent bull. You must then get close so that you can judge his ivory and take a safe shot. No, it's not for everyone, but it is far from easy.

I hunted extensively in Botswana. I spot and stalked with a bow rather than sitting in a blind over a waterhole. Why? Because I wanted to enjoy the hunt and the challenge. Is some hunting in Africa fairly easy? Sure. Just not mine. Like any type of hunting, you can make it challenging if you want to. You can sit over a pile of corn in Florence or you can hunt a funnel in Laurens. Your choice. I know some people do shoot out of a bakkie, but the vast majority do not. Unfortunately, Baydog was incorrect when he wrote earlier that cats can't be taken with a light at night. The law varies from country to country and it is legal in some countries to hunt big cats at night with a light. I would not do it and don't agree with it, but it is legal in places. Again, however, most cats are not taken in this manner.

Another point made earlier was that you don't buy into the argument that hunting benefits the people of Africa. Truth be told, if we did not hunt, then there would be little left to hunt in many countries. Commercial hunting places a much higher value on the wildlife. If the wildlife has value to the community, then it is respected and not poached out. Look at Kenya (where I lived and travelled extensively). In the 1960's, it was the mecca of sport hunting. Now, it's hard to find a freaking zebra. Why, because they closed hunting, wildlife lost its value, and the people poached the country out of animals. I spent 30 days hiking and climbing Mount Kenya. I saw a total of about 5 elephants, two cape buffalo, one bushbuck, and 6-8 zebras. I saw 100 times that in a single day in a hunting concession in Botswana.

The bottom line is that you may hate the idea of hunting in Africa. That is your right. But your "facts" are flat out wrong and you really shouldn't talk when you don't know what you're talking about.

[Carolina Counsel]

What happened to being conscientious?

Big cats are by anyone's definition endangered.

No, they're not.

[Fish]

The information I have been able to gather indicates that while the population in some areas are stable, perhaps even thriving, there are many areas where the leopard is most certainly endangered. Here are my sources.

http://www.safarinow.com/cms/african-leopard/irie.aspx

Status: Leopards have been given a Lower Risk status on the IUCN Red List of Threatened Species. Leopard population figures are estimated at greater than 50,000 mature breeding individuals, but are cause for concern with a declining trend due to hunting and degradation of its habitat and prey base.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopard

The IUCN notes that within sub-Saharan Africa the species is "still numerous and even thriving in marginal habitats" where other large cats have disappeared, but that populations in North Africa may be extinct. In Asia, data on distribution is not consistent: populations in Southwest and Central Asia are small and fragmented; in the northeast portion of the range, they are critically endangered; but in the Indian subcontinent, Southeast Asia, and China, the leopard is still relatively abundant.[2] Of the species as a whole, its numbers are greater than those of other Panthera species, all of which face more acute conservation concerns.[2]

And just to set the record straight here, my only issue is with the big cats. Everything else is "on the menu" as far as I'm concerned.

[Carolina Counsel]

It looks like the leopards referenced there are not in "hunting" Africa. Also, you can't buy into a lot of the propoganda put out by many of the bunny hugger and governmental agencies. If you ask them, we shouldn't kill wolves either.

[Fish]

I didn't run the sources through a propoganda filter. I went to the www and found four sources, the first four in the order that they were shown on the page. ALL of the information was consistent and I supplied the first two here for your convenience.

On a side note, I will concede that it is a sad state when you can't trust multiple sources because of political correctness and liberal bais. Looking on the bright side, perhaps one day we'll have an opportunity to hunt democrats.

[walt4dun]

I've been to South Africa. I have family that still lives near Jo'burg and I spent two weeks riding through Kruger with them - I shot HUNDREDS of animals too (with a camera). It was flat out one of the coolest things I have ever done in my life. Absolutely.

My thoughts on hunting there: I would be all over it.

As said, you can certainly go on a "TV style safari"... or you can go a HUNT. A hard, scary, adrenaline dumping, flooring experience.

Those damn animals out there ain't no joke...
I watched two bulls elephants fighting their asses off for 5 minutes about 50yds from our vehile in Kruger. When they hit each other you could have measured it on the Richter scale. Then one of them pulled a fucking tree out the ground with his trunk and threw it to show the other one how badass he was.
When you see a lion kill something in real life and hear that animal dying you all of a sudden feel really out of your element. If they get a notion to eat you, you're dinner, period.
And cape buffalo, just damn. TV does not do them justice. They are probably my favorite for a number of reasons; I have great respect for them and think they are beautiful creatures. You're going to need to be the type of guy that carrys your balls in a bucket if you are considering to really hunt them. Extremely dangerous hunt.

So pretty much I can't wait to go back and hunt - I would certainly be as safe as possible but hell, if I get killed, it would be a cool way to go. Beats the fuck out of the old folks home.

[baydog]

CC,

Just to clarify, I wasnt talking about every country, merely refering to the country where the animal was shot, which I think was Zimbabwe, where it is illegal to use a light. Good post above.

[Murray]

I'm out on lion hunting

[BOGSTER]

ok, well will a "my bad" suffice?
Im sure its quite rugged and manly....its just not for me.

I hate to be a dick (actually, I don't), but the more you write about this subject, the more you portray your absolute ignorance of the subject. I haven't even gotten past page three and I just have to interject. You sincerely have no clue what you are writing. I have been to Africa. I have lived there and I have hunted there. I actually know about the subject.