DNR opposes PeeDee Powerplant

[BigBrother]

Jozie, I wasnt alive in 62.

I am here today though.

With the closure of the smurfit plant in Florence, and the subesquent after effects left lying there with no one bearing the responsibility of our forefathers indiscretions...I cant really think of a better case to cite to oppose the Pee Dee plant.

Well crafted analogy btw, but, inaccurate comparison.

[duckduckdog]

The gypsum used in wallboard is made from a slurry mixture of limestome used in the FGD (flu gas disulferiser). This is not the same as bottom ash which is what is stored in the ash ponds. Bottom ash comes from the boiler and is totally different than gypsum. The Cross plants also send their gypsum to the American Gypsum plant at Winyah. This gypsum was once a waste but it now being used for something. Bottom ash is approved by the federal highway administration for fill material and works really good for this. It is well graded in that it is made up a bunch of different particle sizes and compacts and drains very well. The draining very well part is what makes it unusable for dam and dike material. All of this material could find a home and be used very safely (layer of high clay content soil, bottom ash, capped with a layer of FLBC) and there would be almost no need for ash ponds. DHEC however is scared to actually let anyone use it for this purpose. It is currently mined and used as an aggregate in concrete blocks, but this doesn't put a huge dent in the amount that is available. Fly ash is the 3rd byproduct of coal combustion and it is recycled pretty close to 100% to the cement industry. These ash ponds are completely lined and are safe.

[DeltaDucks]

What do you fellas think is laying in the bottom of the lagoon at Stone Container? They have been running that powerhouse and pulp mill since '62. With the probability of Smurfit Stone filing bankrupcy, who will look over the dikes if they go belly up?

You are worried about a grenade that is 20 years in the future when you already have a bomb in your lap.

You're absolutley right about the lagoon, there is no doubt that there is some nasty crap in there, my dad has worked there for 30 years and I grew up hunting in that lagoon. I've seen the stuff that will turn your waders funky colors in one morning hunt.
One could take a look at what the stuff in there has done to the "Life"
within the lagoon and get a taste of what would happen to the river ecosystem if that stuff was to get in the river. DHEC should have been on that situation YEARS ago.

That is damage that's already done, short of a major clean up in there (which I don't forsee happening) there really is nothing we can do about that. What we can do is hopefully prevent another nasty, toxin filled, unregulated holding pond from being built on the same river system.
If DHEC has allowed Stone to go all these years, I don't think they will do any better job regulating Santee Cooper.

Why double Kill ourselves.

[SCTIMBER]

Stone will not close in my own opinion. They will restructure, possibly under new leadership or owners. They are getting ready to do a good bit of work down there around the river. That lagoon down there is right nasty but you should head over to the dump where they compact all the trash and ash everyday.

The company my dad works for has had the contract for years of doing work down on the dike and in the mill. The same guy has run the compactor down on the dump for many years, I wouldn't have that job to save my ever loving life. You gotta imagine what the inside of his lungs look like.

[duckduckdog]

DHEC Board Affirms Pee Dee Permit

The board of South Carolina's Department of Health and Environmental Control affirmed today the decision its staff made in December to grant an air permit for Santee Cooper's Pee Dee Energy Campus.

The board voted 4-2 to affirm the DHEC's permit award. The Associated Press is reporting that environmental advocacy groups, who appealed the DHEC permit to its board, said they will continue the appeal process to the state's Administrative Law Court.

[BigBrother]

Funny how that happens before the environmental impact study is done.

Funnier still, that it is the air permit that is given or applied for first. There is still the water and soil aspects of it all...that are not yet up for a "vote" if you will.

[SCTIMBER]

Interesting short article in Southern Logging Times - Feb 2009

Biomass Saves Money at Power Plant

Savannah River Site, which converted a coal-fired power plant to run on biomass fuel last year, estimates it is saving $1.5 million a year through its use of wood products. The $10 million project, began in June 2007, included the conversion of coal-fired generators in the site's A-Area to a new system that burns wood chips and tree residue.

The plant operates on 22,000 tons of wood chips each year, replacing at least 12,000 tons of coal that were used by the plant.

[redhead25]

JAB,
Curious, how does the scrubber, which cleans the air, make the air dirty?

To anyone that compares the TVA with a modern built ash pond:

Get your damn head out of the polical arenas and think for yourself. The TVA siuation was screwed up to begin with. Read the facts , not the propaganda.

The rest of you that use the "mercury" argument:

Mercury is a naturally occurring element. It shows up with low water levels a lot more because the water discarge gets slower and can't flush the river as effectively. After seeig all the BS propaganda that the Post and Courier published about SCE&G i found out after digging that the water that SCE&G relesed into the Edisto River was cleaner than the water sampled upstream. That paper misconstrued so many facts it wasn't even funny but atleast I had enough sense not to believe everything without checking it out first. You better believe I would rather live next to a coal fired plant with today's technology than a plant with nuclear waste.

[BigBrother]

Mercury is a naturally occurring element

Hemlock grows naturally. Why dont you brew you a nice relaxing cup of tea with it and get back with that natural bullshit tomorrow?

The mercury, arsenic, et. al., occurs just as naturally. Only it is trucked in from coal mines and condenced by burning all the carbon it is in and left behind in ash...to be stored at the headwaters of a major watershed. Nuclear waste is stored in a concrete cave in the middle of a western desert. France has facilities that buy fuel rods and are able to get some more fusion out of them.

As previously stated, Smurfit has a nice retention pond with all these noxious goodies in it. Smurfit is closing plants right and left, Florence to my knowledge, if it hasnt already closed, it is in trouble. Who maintains those berms when they go totally belly up? Nothing is fail safe. There are no guarantees. Shit is going to happen, levees fail.

For the record, I am no environmental wacko. I recognize the need to expand our infrastructure to further latch ourselves onto the yankee teat. It is funny though, the only folks I see speaking out for this facility in the Pee Dee dont live there. Most are from around driving distance to Monks Corner.

[duckduckdog]

Driving distance from Moncks Corner means we live as closer to 4 units a cross and the units at jefferies than most of the houses I've seen close to the Pee Dee site. I've been involved with the construction of coal fired plants for the past 10 years. I know how they are currently built and it's not your grandaddy's coal plant. The new plants are much more efficient and MUCH cleaner than any of their counterparts 20 or 30 years ago. The amount of mercury you are talking about would fit in a quart jar. How many themometers get thrown out into our watersheds every year?
You cannot get the same BTU from biomass that you get from coal. That is why they are burning almost twice as much wood to produce the electricity they were getting from coal. Where are these natural carbon suppressors coming from?
I am all for new kinds of generation. I truely think that nuclear s the wave of the future and what we will one day all live with. The problem with nuclear is getting it built. MUCH more red tape and up until a couple of years ago, you could build a nuke plant per the plans and specs that you recieved a permit for and still not be guaranteed an operating permit. This was the downfall of the system and why many companies turned away from the nuclear option. Supposed the process is different now and you get a construction/operating permit which if built correctly will be able to be operated. This hasn't been tested yet because nuclear units have not been built in the past few decades. A new coal fired plant will allow older less efficient plants to only be run at peak demand times and will ultimately reduce emmissions because of this fact. Please, do not believe everything you read in the paper. When I said think FOR yourself, I didn't mean, think ABOUT yourself. Keep you children in mind. Think about where they will find a job when businesses start leaving because we as a state fail to provide affordabe reliable power. Think about how you will afford to buy groceries and pay your light bill when you get a bill that has been adjusted to pay for a new nuclear unit. Think about all of this, and yes, please also consider the health and welfare of the environment and the health of your family. Just be careful not to let the enviromental wackos scare you into crippling yourself....

[BigBrother]

DDG, I am painfully aware of how desolate the region is. It is why I live and work in Columbia.

I had the best of both worlds growing up. I split my time evenly between the tobacco fields and the beach. I have watched the good people of the rural areas of Horry, Marion, and Dillon Counties either move away, or become crack heads because the farmers of the region cant make it anymore growing ordinary crops. Their main crop now are trailer parks and strip malls. That kind of work doesnt employ your normal farm hand. The kind that you would be thankful for encountering after dark.


Regarding the beach, I have watched the independant business owners be slowly replaced by time shares and the corporate entities. They have bulldozed Tonys, at one time, one of the best Italian joints at the beach. The local real estate companies slowly being bought out by the corporations. You not only knew everyone in your graduating class, you also knew their families.

Folks in both areas prospered. They were not dependant on a paycheck from XYZ corporation. Families owned beach houses. Yeah, the locals as some would call em, are making bank right now. Their "bank" so to speak comes from selling off parcels of family land to these industries who are dependant on your power.

I understand the nature of things and that the only constant is change. However, regarding securing my children's future, I have already seen legal prostitution and dont want that future for them. If it means, (gasp) becoming self sufficient, (imagine that concept), I like it better than the "change" that everyone preaches now.

Again, I am no envirowacko. However, I have made myself clear in that I am looking to secure a better future for my son. What you consider crippling, is to me, actually strength. Beyond the environmental argument, I sincerely do not want to watch the futher prostitution and subsequent bastardization that comes from the "progress" more and cheaper energy will bring. I have seen so much "change" and "progress" now, that it makes me want to vomit.

[SCTIMBER]

You cannot get the same BTU from biomass that you get from coal. That is why they are burning almost twice as much wood to produce the electricity they were getting from coal. ....

Not trying to start an argument but wood is a renewable resource. Even if it takes twice as much to run efficiently, that is no problem in this state. Stone Container produces their own energy and sells the excess. Why can't it be done on a larger scale? Timber is the #1 cash crop in the state, it would be clean to use and produce the same results at a lesser expense. Makes good sense to me.

[duckplucker]

Progress Energy built a power plant near Rockingham NC a few years ago that is run off of natural gas. Built it I need to burn some welding rods.

[duckduckdog]

Wood is great for these samller papermill plants but once you start talking about a base load unit, I'mnot sure that you have an understanding of how much wood that would take. You would be looking at 20,000,000 tons (rough estimate) of wood per yer to sustain the units at cross. Now, I don't have a feal for how many acres of wood that it, maybe you could clue me in, but it sounds like a lot to me. And that is just for one site. How long could the state's cash crop support that? Believe me guys, I am for doing everything as enviromentally responsible as it can be done, but I think the media has done a great job of feeding everyone propaganda that is not rue to promote their own agenda. I live down wind and dowstream from Cross and I do not take these types of matters lightly. I just wanted to provide some truth.
Big Brother - i could care less if Myrtle Beach ever gets another condo or strip mall, but I worry about the plants that would relocate or not come at all. The plants that give decent paying jobs to the working class. I understand what you are saying and I agree with you on a lot of it. I just don't think that the "progress" is going to stop. Not building a plant is not going to stop people from moving here. California's population is growing dispite the rolling blackouts they frequently experience. We just need to make sure that we are ready. SC and the coops have a legal obligation to provide power. I hope you understand where I am coming from as well.

[GMAC]

At some point in our history, we abondened the concept of self-sufficiency, and bought into the notion that we must sit around and wait for others to provide us with jobs. And we look to government to be sure that it happens.

This has reduced people to the role of effete sheep. Faceless cogs in the consumption economy. Besides being sad, and a little creepy, this is the formula for the growth treadmill. It is why no politician will ever act to curb immigration. It is why economists have fits when people save instead of spend. It has exposed us to the crippling effects of economic collapse just because the demand for new subdivisions has slowed. If you're worried about the future of your grandchildren, think about where this is taking us.

[redhead25]

SCTimber,
It would take so many trees to provide the state with power that the whole state would be a clear cut in three years. Wood is horribly ineffecient.

Big Brother,
Please explain to me why the Edisto river has fish advisories on it every summer well above any power plant. Some of the highest mercury levels were gathered from the headwaters way above any industrialization.

[Sashimi]

Big Brother,
Please explain to me why the Edisto river has fish advisories on it every summer well above any power plant. Some of the highest mercury levels were gathered from the headwaters way above any industrialization.

Little known fact, an asphalt factory sits at the headwaters of the S. Edisto, and has just about since asphalt has been around. Funny thing, their lot slopes directly towards the river.

[redhead25]

"Little known fact, an asphalt factory sits at the headwaters of the S. Edisto, and has just about since asphalt has been around. Funny thing, their lot slopes directly towards the river."

Impossible. DHEC has NPDES permits that industries have to go by and allowing water runoff to go directly into a river is against all rules. It has to go into a sump or catch basin or something. Not to mention that even if it did, it could not supply the river with enough mercury to be detectable several miles downriver.

[BigBrother]

DDG, I fully understand where you are coming from. Please also note, that I read the news with a critical mindset. I can smell when someone is feeding me a line of bullshit. Much the same when folks want to pipe their sewage upstream from my drinking water and telling me it will be safe. I am not implying that you are feeding me bullshit, you have been quite fair in your argument, however, it is evident you have a self interest in it's inception.

The amount of mercury you are talking about would fit in a quart jar

How do you get it out of the retention ponds and into that glass jar? I am sure it can be done, but is it cost effective to do so?

The not so grand strand sold out a decade ago. I cant think of the first industry that will come and and drop the kind of cash for the real estate necessary to build a "plant" that will absorb all the necessary energy Pee Dee will provide. Real estate there is much more valuable as a golf course or subdivision. Besides, the local government will fight new industry tooth and nail. What better way to devalue for residential use, large tracts of property than to drop in a manufacturing facility anywhere close? In short, that section of the coast will always be a retirement/vacation spot. It makes more money and instead of providing jobs for the hardworking middle class, it no a whole, provides seasonal work with no foundation.

Look at Florida for example. Having history in transportation and logistics, I know why the lanes are rated so high to go into Florida. Everything is trucked in. They don't produce anything. The trucks for the most part, have to come back empty. The only exceptions are boats, sugar, produce when in season, and corpses.

So the coast will not receive any new plants...Let's review the Pee Dee region:

To attract new industry, in addition to infrastructure, you need educated workers.

The Pee Dee region has been cited numerous times nationally as educationally backward. Dillon especially so. Every plant I can think of in Marion has shut down. There was plenty of power for them to operate 10 years ago...they aren't using it now...no significant growth in the area to fuel the need for more power...

Realistically, what benefit does a power plant serve the region? Is it to supply other areas of SC with power? Is it to produce power to sell to other regions of South Carolina?

Redhead, I really don't care what the edisto has in it. I am pretty sure, I have never even gotten my toes wet there before. However, using common sense, I find it probable that since the river system traverses almost the entire southern border of SC, that there is ripe opportunity for crap to flow in it from most any tributary.

As mentioned, biomass is not an efficient fuel for power generation.

I would like to see growth in the region, but not the type growth that comes with industrialization. My concept of sustainable growth does not involve importing carpetbaggers and further subjugating our sons and daughters of South Carolina.

[BigBrother]

Impossible. DHEC

DHEC has proven time and time again that it needs to focus on regulating swimming pools. Their concept of environmental control is controling who or what corporate entity can pipe their excrement into our rivers and ground water.