South Carolina land conservation Bank

[ziggy]

utopia

[Highstrung]

And men wear sneakers. The only problem besides sneakers is that most everything worth saving will probably be gone before we reach this utopia. Did I say that out of selfishness, ignorance, not to me, I'm an outdoorsman and a sportsman.

[marsh chicken]

The end result of pure libertarianism is the state does not care about quality of life issues. You are own your own. If you want to hunt, buy your own land. The state has no business in the recreation business.

No parks, no stadiums, no WMA's, no public lakes.

It would be wonderful. But "I get it" it can't happen at this point, and won't happen. The Feds have no right to be in the land biz. That belongs to the states.

[scatter shot]

This is the land listed in the SCDNR regs. that are open to public hunting. I'd imagine ( but don't know for sure ) that some of this land was acquired by SCDNR thru CEs or other methods. Other lands listed and still owned by individuals or other entities may be assumed to also have some CEs on the land.
Regardless of how these lands became enlisted into the WMA program, I'm thankful that they are there.

Landowners providing their land for public hunting and recreation are due much appreciation from the SCDNR and all outdoor enthusiasts. Without these
lands, public hunting as provided in this state would be impossible. Sportsmen seeing the yellow and black diamond-shaped signs designating WMA
boundaries should remember they are hunting as guests of the landowner and be respectful of this privilege.
US Forest Service .................................................. ..........................................632,177
SC Department of Natural Resources .................................................. .......234,676
SC Forestry Commission .................................................. ................................90,296
SC Public Service Authority (Santee) .................................................. ...........24,949
Clemson University .................................................. ...........................................11,265
Department of Energy .................................................. ......................................10,470
American Forest Management .................................................. .......................17,417
SCPRT .................................................. .................................................. .................. 7,571
Corps of Engineers (Thurmond Res.) .................................................. .............6,506
SC Electric & Gas Company .................................................. ..............................5,187
Timber-Lands L.P. .................................................. ..............................................2,00 2
Plum Creek Marketing, Inc............................................... ...................................4,808
Catch Mark Timber .................................................. .............................................3,245
TIAA Timberlands II (Hancock Forest Mgmt.) ................................................4, 682
American Timberland II (RMK) .................................................. ......................... 2,751
Georgia Power Company .................................................. .................................. 2,814
Wells Fargo Bank (Brown Trust) .................................................. .......................3,252
SC Dept. of Commerce .................................................. ...................................... 1,675
SC Public Ser. Auth. (Pee Dee) .................................................. .........................2,755
Corps of Engineers (Canal) .................................................. ...............................2,465
Knightwood (Hancock Forest Mgmt.) .................................................. ............... 476
Springland, Inc .................................................. .................................................. ...1,856
Duke Energy Progress .................................................. .......................................1,036
SC Conf. Bd. Of Camps & Retreats .................................................. .................1,060
Duke Energy Carolinas .................................................. ...................................... 7,443
York County .................................................. .................................................. ........1,643
Jordan Properties .................................................. ................................................2, 474
Duke Energy (ROWs) .................................................. ...........................................1,200
Thomas Heirs LLC .................................................. .................................................. 594
TNC – Ninetimes .................................................. .................................................. ...560
Lavinia B. George Estate .................................................. ......................................944
City of Walhalla .................................................. .................................................. .....439
City of Clinton .................................................. .................................................. ........ 276
Brown Family Partnership .................................................. ....................................205
Commission of Public Works (Greer) .................................................. ................100
William & Joab Lesesne .................................................. .......................................... 92
Vandiviere Properties LLC .................................................. ...................................655
John and Irene Blackmon .................................................. .................................1,587
Blue Heron Timber LLC .................................................. .........................................594
Naturaland Trust .................................................. .................................................. 2,253
Dorothy Beaty Estate .................................................. ............................................557
The Conservation Fund .................................................. .......................................1,674
TOTAL ACRES .................................................. ...............................................1,0 98,681

edited to add-
I realize that there are also lands with CEs that are not in the WMA program. Regardless, I'm in favor of CEs unless it's proven that moneys spent are out of proportion to value gained from preserving lands from development. Show me where moneys are being wasted or used incorrectly and I may change my mind.

[Glenn]

The end result of pure libertarianism is the state does not care about quality of life issues. You are own your own. If you want to hunt, buy your own land. The state has no business in the recreation business.

No parks, no stadiums, no WMA's, no public lakes.

Yes, please. Whatever would we do without you all knowing and all powerful politicians to save us from ourselves?

[Stripa Swipa]

It would be wonderful. But "I get it" it can't happen at this point, and won't happen. The Feds have no right to be in the land biz. That belongs to the states.

But I thought you were saying the states don't have the right either. Pure libertarianism runs into the "tragedy of the commons" problem. Nature doesn't seem to respect the fact that Jesus wrote the US Constitution. I wish I had more time for this thread. Looks like a good one.....

[marsh chicken]

But I thought you were saying the states don't have the right either. Pure libertarianism runs into the "tragedy of the commons" problem. Nature doesn't seem to respect the fact that Jesus wrote the US Constitution. I wish I had more time for this thread. Looks like a good one.....

I'm saying...if you have to choose the lesser of the two evils. States should own land before the Feds ever do.

DT wants to ask me what I would do if we didn't have WMA's or state parks. I would do what I normally do. Go hunt land that I lease or own. What would we do without public stadiums? Simple... frequent the privately owned ones.

[MC]

Access to land for you to be able to hunt is only part of the equation. The resources (game) that you would hunt is owned by all Americans. That was the foundation for the North American Conservation Model. Without that model, the resources that all Americans are able to enjoy would have fallen victim to what Stripa is referring to as the tragedy of commons.

I go back to your response that Yellowstone was a mistake. Have you set foot in Yellowstone?
Have you looked at the history of how Yellowstone was discovered by European settlers and how it came to be "preserved"?
Have you considered the timeline of that history in the context of when Montana, Wyoming and Idaho became states?
Have you looked at the economy of those states, and considered how Yellowstone would be preserved by those three states without support from the other 47?

[marsh chicken]

Access to land for you to be able to hunt is only part of the equation. The resources (game) that you would hunt is owned by all Americans. That was the foundation for the North American Conservation Model. Without that model, the resources that all Americans are able to enjoy would have fallen victim to what Stripa is referring to as the tragedy of commons.

I go back to your response that Yellowstone was a mistake. Have you set foot in Yellowstone?
Have you looked at the history of how Yellowstone was discovered by European settlers and how it came to be "preserved"?
Have you considered the timeline of that history in the context of when Montana, Wyoming and Idaho became states?
Have you looked at the economy of those states, and considered how Yellowstone would be preserved by those three states without support from the other 47?

I have set foot in Yellowstone several times. The trees and grizzly bears don't know they are owned by the Feds...nor do they care. I fail to see what the federal government can do that the states can't. Maintain roads? Provide uniforms to the park rangers that chase off every asshole with a camera harassing wildlife? In fact...if a large conservation group wanted to buy the land...I fail to see what the federal government does so well that the individual organization couldn't do.

I won't pretend to know the history of the park other than it was founded back in the 1800's. I know that it should have been turned over to the states citizens long ago. And I don't think that would change a thing. The only way you know you are in Yellowstone sometimes is to look at a map. Or the 10 zillion tourist huddled around places like old faithful. The rest of it looks just like the other private and state owned ground in the region.

[marsh chicken]

Should we talk about the infinite wisdom of reintroducing wolves to Yellowstone by our all knowing conservation organization known as the government?

[Duck Tape]

Our state budget in it's entirety is 25,000,000,000
The bank gets 18,000,000 or .00072%.

It may be insignificant to the state budget but it is significant to wildlife...

I can concur with the federal land ownership issue. I also believe we need the preserve special places for wildlife and outdoorsmen.

[marsh chicken]

Our state budget in it's entirety is 25,000,000,000
The bank gets 18,000,000 or .00072%.

It may be insignificant to the state budget but it is significant to wildlife...

I can concur with the federal land ownership issue. I also believe we need the preserve special places for wildlife and outdoorsmen.

And how many more of those little tiny percents start to add up to one big ass number? I also believe we need to preserve special places for wildlife and sportsman. I just don't agree that we need the government very much involved in order to do that.

[pstro]

I am absolutely for smaller government, less taxes. That being said...

CE should have government involvement because the land is for greater good (whether you have access or not. If you can't access it wildlife can). I am for giving tax credits because if you own a tract that can be sold at market value with no development restrictions it is worth more than land that has an easement and can never be developed. (I don't feel that if I buy a hunt club that can't be later sold to be a Walmart that my taxed value of the land should be the same but I am completely against property taxes but that is a whole other discussion.)

Marvin is an excellent person who has done great things for wildlife in this state.

Yes. I would rather give tax payer money to rich people over the average welfare recipient because they contribute to our society (the top 1% pay more than 50% of taxes).

Without government jimbo from the trailer park wouldn't have any public land to hunt be cause rich people would own everything. Remember Robin Hood became an outlaw because he killed "the kings deer"




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[Stripa Swipa]

Marsh...why does the United States even exist? Common defense is the primary reason. As MC correctly describes, we have common property as US citizens that exceed the capacity of individual states to properly manage and secure. As a taxpayer, federal land ownership and access has been an incredible bargain. Congressional mismanagement of your money is the problem. Ayn Rand idealism has created an environment for the Koch brothers to talk many of you out of your shares of your community property.

[Hogg]

Marsh...why does the United States even exist? Common defense is the primary reason. As MC correctly describes, we have common property as US citizens that exceed the capacity of individual states to properly manage and secure. As a taxpayer, federal land ownership and access has been an incredible bargain. Congressional mismanagement of your money is the problem. Ayn Rand idealism has created an environment for the Koch brothers to talk many of you out of your shares of your community property.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people in this State are voting against their own self interest without even realizing it.

[marsh chicken]

Marsh...why does the United States even exist? Common defense is the primary reason. As MC correctly describes, we have common property as US citizens that exceed the capacity of individual states to properly manage and secure. As a taxpayer, federal land ownership and access has been an incredible bargain. Congressional mismanagement of your money is the problem. Ayn Rand idealism has created an environment for the Koch brothers to talk many of you out of your shares of your community property.

You want me to tell you that it's the governments job to promote domestic tranquillity by maintaining parks and outdoor spaces. Where does that stop? Movie theaters? Ice skating rinks? Laser tag? The governments role is not one that involves giving you a place to deer hunt. And the states or private org's could do a much better job of managing things than the Feds can. Look at the debt the park service carries...it rivals that of the post office.

[Stripa Swipa]

Do you want SC to provide for your defense? Federal agencies don't control their funding so the competency of the National Park Service to manage their money can't be analyzed by "looking at the debt they carry." Take a look at the nuclear plant or the state's retirement fund and continue to talk to me about how much better "the state" would do managing anything than the federal government. I'll be the first to sign up for the party that wants to reduce the size and scope of government at ALL levels. Where I struggle to get on board is with folks that don't have an idea for what government should and should not be involved in and why. There is too much of a belief system around "the feds are evil" and "the states are righteous." Limiting government's power is for the purpose of protecting individual liberty. Using federal agency to protect shared ownership of common property is an act of protecting individual liberty.

[marsh chicken]

I never said anything about the federal government not fulfilling the role of national defense. That has nothing to do with this topic.

In terms of the latter argument. I wasn't advocating for the states. I was picking the lesser of two evils. Federal agencies don't control their funding. Neither do state agencies. The politicians control their funding. And it's why I don't like the government having any part in this. Neither one of them if good at it, and it costs us billions.

The government has key critical roles to fulfill. National defense, our justice system, collaboration amongst the states/cities/towns, maintaining order and basic cleanliness in common areas, facilitating commerce,etc. The government does not exist to give you a place to shoot doves or watch grizzly bears take a shit.

[Highstrung]

How about golf?

[MC]

The Public Trust Doctrine is what established those grizzly bears and trees as belonging to no one. They are held in trust for you, me and everyone in this as well as future generations. So you first have to separate the notion that a conservation organization is even a possibility for managing our natural resources.

That gets us back to the state and federal governments role in managing that public trust. The Public Trust Doctrine established the states as trustees, except where the Constitution provided for federal oversight. Three clauses in the Constitution address federal oversight: the Commerce Clause, the Property Clause and the Supremacy Clause. So yes, it is part of "the job".