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Thread: Longleaf Alliance ? ? ?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strick9 View Post
    I agree with you both Cali and Tuffy. Its truly night and day between proper and improper management and restoration efforts applied to private versus public lands LL restoration efforts.

    Cali , from a timber money/harvest/time approach, which species matures ( on average) is the fastest and is more readily harvested for profit ?.. Isn't Lob the correct answer? Even if we are talking chip wood harvest right?

    So if I am correct there lets move forward, (if not correct me) but might there be some weight to the statements of late, that private land owners and the USFS opt the way of LL restoration mainly to collect Federal grant monies to offset the delayed time of harvest money as compared with quicker returns on LB? ( not my statement but can say that I see such).

    Habitat wise, that of a mature LL stand versus LB stand are really close in species and diversity upon the same region even down to the RCW, which has been documented. Now of course a mixed pine/hardwood forest is even more biologically diverse but hampers timber harvest gains. Mixed age class stands even the better for diversity as well.

    I hear the fire acclimated landscape/habitat debate often as well.. My thoughts are that both species can and do readily sustain low intensity fire but the LB would certainly encourage one to be much more careful with fire. LL obviously being more tolerant to mid-high intensity fires (what we don't want to duplicate).

    If we looked at mature/climax and even to OG stands of both at equal basil density we would also find the same grasses, forbes and animal species "for the most part". One species predominating over the other will certainly rule out "exact oriented species" but I believe such will always be the case. We agree on the timber mortality entirely, its unnerving. One thing of note with LL restoration as related to areas that are currently pine/hardwood mix is that we have now created a mono culture and removed what the new kids on the block like to call ecotones, I call them soft edge or transition zones.

    No doubt the lumber of LL is superior in many aspects and some species are specific to LL , just curious as to your thoughts on this topic as it comes up often?

    In all honesty, I am just really curious as to the true driver behind the LL restoration in your opinion? Is it simply to go back into nostalgic time or was the movement possibly a knee jerk reaction to climate change that came with money handouts all originating during Obamas tenure and his creation of " The Resilient Program" as noted in the millions of dollars shown in the linked article below?

    Don't take any of this the wrong way, if we can slowly over time and properly restore Long Leaf without detriment as has been seen on some private lands I can stand with the program on some expanse. However beyond nostalgic gains I can't really put my finger on the true pros, it seems at least to me, to lead to decreased timber production and possibly at the risk of further mono culture creation (as LB have there oriented species as well) and through its rapid deployment most certainly can be of detriment to wildlife as you have noted , the NF being a perfect example of such..

    https://www.doi.gov/sites/doi.opengo...0Proposals.pdf
    Lob is faster growing, shorter lived, and obviously less fire tolerant...All reasons why LL became the dominant tree of 19th century climax forest!
    It's difficult to say why each landowner chose to plant LL in the past 10 or so years.....some for the cost share funds, others for the ecological benefits of the tree itself?
    We did so for a number of reasons including straw raking but most notably the fire aspect....Having the ability to burn a stand of trees at <10 is pretty impressive and the benefits are huge!
    That said, I pretty much have all the LL pine I need on our place at this point and we are planting quality, improved LOB everywhere possible......BALANCE!

    Now, talking habitat.....A mixed stand of pine/hw is only more diverse in regards to tree species on site.
    The herbaceous diversity will unfortunately be less! You see, there will be less sunlight reaching the forest floor and less ground to seed contact and seed scarification from the effects of fire.

    Generally, yes a LL stand next to a LOB stand on the same site (all things equal) will pretty much have the same herbaceous component.
    However, once again LL rules over LOB to allow even more sunlight reach the forest floor since trees of equal size will have fewer limbs.

    FYI, LL restoration efforts were in full swing way before Obummer's tenure in Washington!
    \"I never saw a wild thing feel sorry for itself. A small bird will drop dead frozen from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself.\" <br />D.H. LAWRENCE

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuffy View Post
    MC .... Well said. What you describe is what I envision, but not what comes to mind with "Longleaf Savanna". BTW: It's my impression that the original pre-19th century observations appear to describe two different ecosystems that we have run together in a vision. They talked about "savannas" with descriptions like "meadows" and "treeless", but they also spoke of "pine barrens". It's not obvious to me how those two pre-settlement ecosystems became "pine savannas", but I have no doubts that a lot of just that did exist. It's interesting.

    Some of you guys have to let me see that well-managed habitat when it is convenient.
    Typically PINE BARRENS are described as low fertility sites of the Northeast Coastal Plains and not associated with LL pine.
    \"I never saw a wild thing feel sorry for itself. A small bird will drop dead frozen from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself.\" <br />D.H. LAWRENCE

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calibogue View Post
    Typically PINE BARRENS are described as low fertility sites of the Northeast Coastal Plains and not associated with LL pine.
    I know that's the correct usage, but I couldn't resist the common original description of those pine savannas in South Carolina. The FIA data tells-the-tale that Longleaf restoration has NOT been as pervasive as the enthusiasm of FMNF would make it appear. It's actually changed very little since 1968, on net, while the Lob sure has, at the expense of Slash, Shortleaf, Pond Pine, and (of course) the Oak/Pine group. Without FM, there's not much of a Longleaf-specific conversation other than a few Kool-Aid and Partnership cracks.

    More generally, we'd just have the endless discussion about Mixed vs. Pine as turkey habitat and you win that with boots-on-the-ground. I know it's not really habitat changes that explain the L-T turkey population.... after all is said and done. I don't think it really was with the quail either, but......

    There may be a conversation about Hardwood succession in the future, though, but it may just be economics and aesthetics.

  4. #24
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    Make the aerial ignition shit go away, begin actual clearcutting to make way for true LL reforestation in lieu of hoping nature will do it , and all of this smoke will settle!
    \"I never saw a wild thing feel sorry for itself. A small bird will drop dead frozen from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself.\" <br />D.H. LAWRENCE

  5. #25
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    Speaking of FM of course....
    \"I never saw a wild thing feel sorry for itself. A small bird will drop dead frozen from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself.\" <br />D.H. LAWRENCE

  6. #26
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    EXACTLY. If your name was Gary or John or Russel or Tom, I could forward that to Rhea and Paul and get back to talking about Turkey season dates and research. The public sector understandably hesitates to call-out one another, though I don't think any of those would disagree with you. It frustrates the HECK out of me, but I just can't fault them for it. Please help encourage them all to do it privately, though.

    Thank you, Cali. Thank you, MC. MC, we got back to the original thoughts, I think. We good?

  7. #27
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    The use of the phrase "pine barrens," has been thrown around since the days of the first explorers/pioneers of the coastal plains. They were mainly referring to the vast and monotonous expanse of longleaf with little consideration of herbaceous diversity (or as Cali mentioned the Jersey barrens)Most of these people weren't your bartams, michauex's. etc. In many instances the areas they were traveling through were indeed highly diverse. Now, in common use, you hear it connected with sandhill longleaf woods, which generally are low in herbaceous diversity. Longleaf savannas and flatwoods are highly diverse from an avian, herp, and floral perspective.

    Some of the best brood and bugging habitat are longleaf woods with a 2 year rough. Wiregrass, bluestem, indiangrass, Desmodiums, a few partridge peas, some Bidens along the wetter edges. In these open woods with a good understory, you also get early successional species in decline like meadowlarks, shrikes, quail, Bachman'sparrow, and indigos.

    I think managers sometimes fall short by burning to meet a quota or when feeling pressure to reduce fuels annually for wildfire concern. Much of this isn't necessarily pushed by the managers themselves. "We've got a north wind, dispersion is decent, we haven't been able to burn in a week, so let's burn Block A. Conditions may not be right to achieve the desired results for Block A, but your job is to burn.

    "Our goal is to burn 40,000 acres a year. The winds and fuels aren't right to burn most things on the property but we can always burn Block B, regardless of wether we need to or not."

    These are all issues relevant to discussion but even on such properties I can show you more quail and turkey than you'll see across the blacktop.
    Last edited by Quercus Alba; 05-26-2017 at 03:59 PM.

  8. #28
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    I'll bite.... What kind of habitat is across the blacktop?

  9. #29
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    NF....?
    \"I never saw a wild thing feel sorry for itself. A small bird will drop dead frozen from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself.\" <br />D.H. LAWRENCE

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuffy View Post
    I'll bite.... What kind of habitat is across the blacktop?

    All kinds. Some small family landowners, some TIMO woods, some state property. Similar to every other place adjacent to public land in the state.
    Last edited by Quercus Alba; 05-26-2017 at 08:35 PM.

  11. #31
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    I always feel like it is the phrases or the evoked visions that cause many differences-of-opinion on this subject. No doubt, the ecosystems that you guys develop on well-managed pine-dominant areas are MUCH closer to what I envision than the "desired conditions" photos of Francis Marion planning. I want to call those pine/oak or mixed as opposed to savanna, but it's really just a matter of degree and willingness to accept any non-pine growth beyond grasses. Even genuine Longleaf Savanna is quite different if interspersed with other systems (as I believe you all do except some of the quail focus areas) than if managed in solid blocks of several thousand acres as we see intended/implemented on Francis Marion and, actually, Sandhills, though that is more appropriate in a number of ways.

    There may have naturally been a lot of longleaf-dominated savanna, but the importance of the presence of more mixed systems including those far past the fire climax phase shouldn't be ignored. I don't believe that you do, but the Longleaf documentation and the government approach often do, IMO. That often strikes me as very self-serving in the case of some government agencies and more defensive than self-correcting on the part of those professionals in that sector that we depend on to do things the RIGHT way.

    As Longleaf proponents and real land managers, many of you are in a good position to improve that situation. As I've said here and to many of the participants: You have a seat-at-the-table; use it to speak up against some of the mistakes and miss-steps that do exist.

    (Appreciate the decent conversation about it all.)

  12. #32
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    so...did anyone ever post the state article that quoted tuffy?

    I mean, come on, sammy fretwell can make anyone famous for a few seconds...
    Ugh. Stupid people piss me off.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2thDoc View Post
    so...did anyone ever post the state article that quoted tuffy?

    I mean, come on, sammy fretwell can make anyone famous for a few seconds...
    It sounded like a TRAIN was about to run right through here so I grabbed the puppies and the woman and we high-tailed it out to the main highway where all them news peoples would be.

    Yessir, I'd be happy to do an interview, but I know that ain't nobody gives a slimy dayum about things like wild turkeys anymore. It's gonna be like the partridges; couple of rich guys gonna have a few but you and I ain't gonna believe it and we sho ain't gonna see 'em. The United States of America government and the South (By Gawd) Carolina government gonna have some budgets to burn and research and partner with them rich fellows to study and learn what happened . Timber guys gonna do pretty well, too, but most of us gonna just go back to the house and see if that Devil Wind left anything to pick up. Not even Sammy can make stupid famous for long.

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