NC DNR Sucks

[tradorion]

Fish- I don't think i got overly defensive... and even pointed out some issues from both sides. my blood pressure never even bounced a point on this one... because as noted i don't have a dog in this fight either way.

i simply made the observation that their may be some aspect of an explanation other than what someone not in law enforcement might see. And yes, as a professional, i do take an interest ANY TIME someone chooses to "bash" or "badmouth" an officer... Not simply to close ranks with other law enforcement but to see what the truth is. I have seen officers bad mouthed who truly earned the ass chewing they got and more power to the folks who chewed their ass... and i have equally seen officers slammed who had done no wrong. I never even came close to saying "This officer was right."

if that ruffled your overly developed sense of self importance well- to be honest, i don't really give a rat's ass if it did.

have fun with it...

[Huntlabs]

The GW's came to my test site and asked who the judges were. I replied that I was one and that my cojudge was the other. He asked for our hunting license. I gave him mine and my co judge didn't have his on him, but gave him his NC drivers license and he checked, I think, and found out that he had one. He returned his drivers license to him and told me to come to his car where he wrote me a ticket. He did not write my cojudge a ticket because he was from NC and I assume had a NC Hunting License. The same happend at other sites. The only people ticketed were from out of the State of NC. Chris Darby from Goose Creek,SC, Jack Noonan from Ga, and me from Moncks Corner, SC. There were also 2 gunners at the upland test site and one other judge that I'm not sure who he was but he was from out of state. I was there and saw the whole thing at my site. I can not testify to what happened at the upland or Finished sites where other judges were ticketed. I also have a number of questions about the whole thing. I have contacted the Head of NCDNR enforcement division and he referred me to his district captain, Mike Lambert. Mike called while I was out of the house at a board meeting on Tueday evening and I called him back on Wednesday but his wife said he was out of town and would call me back. I have not heard anything else from anyone.

[tradorion]

Huntlabs- i bet your follow up pays off.

[deadriver]

This thing aint gonna be dropped just by the tickets going away at this point. NC is gonna need to have the laws clarified and some changed. It has truely gotten national and their is even some talk about the national clubs trying to lobby to have the Grand pulled form NC in the fall. Make no mistake about it, there are not two sides to this fight. That is why there are so many people with integrity highly pissed off, not just a few hot hands who would pass the buck.

The wardens were not even close to doing their jobs, it was complete disregard and disrepect.

Persnolly, it points out to me that if live flyers are not being used, it should not even be the jurisdiction of the DNR. What the fuck does livestock have to do with DNR in any state!!!!!!!!!!

I guess if Manchester Quail farm decided to grow bob whites would they be limited to bag limits. Pen raised birds are livestock, humanely killed and thrown from a zinger with a popper fired in that direction on private land does not have shit to do with any natural resource or any DNR. I can't believe that some of you guys see that as their jobs. That is the job of DHEC and hmane society, pets and livestock. I have contacted my Senator in SC and brouht up this issue with him. I want to see hunt test out of the juridiction of the DNR in this state. It ain't their affair!!!!
The upland test with flyers makes it a little bit their business, but if no rounds are being fired and game is not being pursued, it should not involve DNR.
This is not the same as a hunting preseve, it is poppers and humanely dispathced live stock!!!

[Briar Buster]

quail, ducks, crows or rabbits are always gonna be classified as game and NEVER will be classified as livestock, if the dna says it is - then it is. might wanna try using a frozen chicken or tv dinners next time.

[Fish]

Originally posted by tradorion:
...i do take an interest ANY TIME someone chooses to "bash" or "badmouth" an officer... Not simply to close ranks with other law enforcement but to see what the truth is.

If you want to take an interest in something then take interest in this. To start, we should not be discussiong this because it shouldn't have happened. The officers should have behaved like gentlemen and conducted themselves like civilized and respectable officers of the law. And although the club was in error when it failed to aquire the appropriate liscence these officers should have acknowledged and respected that a large group of people spent a large amount of time, money and effort to put on this event. These folks were there to promote both sportsmanship (in most cases) and conservation. Making an example out of this group, or whatever the wardens had in mind was WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. Anyone that defends these wardens, (even in principle) and/or their actions, closes ranks, dosen't close ranks but has any inclination of agreement of their actions is not only misguided but is unfit to make decisions as a professional in any arena. I really hope that you can see the injustice here.

[GAChessie]

Well said fish!!!!! [img]graemlins/jmo.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/iagree.gif[/img]

[2thDoc]

geez...this is getting fun.

Fish-i guess i will be one of the "wrong" guys because it seems that laws were broken. regardless of how the officers ACTED, it has no bearing on LAW. you break the law, you pay the fine. what am I missing? seriously, help me out. in the first posts, everyone said how "unfortunate" it was that the club didn't have the right permit and the only bad part was the way the DNR handled it. weren't laws broken? in that case, weren't tickets warranted?

[Fish]

Were laws broken? Were tickets warranted? 2th, you tell me. While your at it, tell me how you would feel if you were at this event and you got the same treatment as these other guys and by a public service officer no less? I believe in rules, god knows I believe in them and I'm fairly certain that a large percentage of the folks who participated in and observed this event that were cited with unfitting and nebulous charges do also. I believe that they would, if given the opportunity, follow the rules to the letter of the law...so here-in lies the core of this discussion.

What laws were broken? And if laws were broken, did the charges fit the infractions. I recall reading something to the extent that a citation was handed out for "taking wild birds without an appropriate license". Where were the wild birds? This was a hunt test...not a hunt. This whole thing is so outlandishly rediculous...i can't even comprehend it.

[2thDoc]

laws were broken. the club didn't get the proper permit. hence, the attendees were indeed hunting without the appropriate licenses. as hard as it is for you to comprehend my post, step back and agree with me that laws were broken...period.

again, i have no dog in this fight, but i hate to see people get all riled up about a DNR agent who acted like an ass. that fact does not make up for the law being broken.

i'm also not taking up for the law. i didn't write it, but its the DNRs job to enforce it.

if you got caught speeding 37 mph in a 35mph zone, would you think the cop was an ass? yep. would you still have been speeding, and thus broke the law? yep again. it ain't fair, but its the law.

as Trad stated earlier, the DNR agent made a judgement call on what to cite the violators for. To me, it seems that he could've added on more violations.

he had no right to be an ass, but he had every right to enforce the law. why is that so hard to comprehend?

i still think the charges were a bit outlandish, and some talking to the right people may turn those tickets into a simple slap on the wrist.

[tradorion]

WOW- this really is getting entertaining... again, there are multiple issues that come to mind.

First- the only side of this event that has yet appeared here is that of the people offended by the officers actions. Thus, objectivity is out the window. Only that side is represented and it is MOST DEFINITELY represented with venom. I once heard the line "If 10 million people do a stupid thing it is still a stupid thing." The fact that multiple people are offended does not take away from the point 2fer made about an original law being broken... The gripe is how the officers handled that infraction of the law.

Second- as far as SC goes, field trials ARE the responsibility of SCDNR (50-11-2100)- i have no clue about NC... but since a field trial is set up to be a test of a hunting dog in a hunting situation, it seems to me that it's regulation is right where it needs to be- with those who enforce hunting laws. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck- it's usually a duck. So having an event modeled closely after a hunt regulated as a hunt seems to follow this line of thought.

Third- as far as game birds go... without shooting preserve permits, it does not matter that the bird is purchased from a pen, it is still considered to be a game bird in most situations that i can find. FOR EXAMPLE- buy 50 quail, turn them out at your private farm, take a buddy and kill 45 and you can/will be cited (if caught) for taking over the limit of quail. PRE-DUCK SEASON get 100 tamies, kill 75 legally throughout the season and post-season decide to have a "clean-up shoot" you can/will be cited for hunting migratory birds out of season among other things. In both cases these birds are "yours- bought and paid for" but b/c of an inability to distinguish them from their wild cousins they are covered under the law to keep people from using a loophole to break the law. Thus quail and ducks used in these cases could cause issue with the law.

Again and again, the biggest things i am pointing out is that there are more views to this case than that of the people who are angered by the events that occurred.

Simply that and nothing more.

[Huntlabs]

OK, we have not heard from the NC DNR until just 5 minutes ago. Mike Lambert, the district captain, and I just got off the phone. Here is the NC point of view. 1. There is no pentalty for having a FT without a permit, so the club could not be charged and end the whole thing. 2. A group of NC residents can get together and have a FT as long as they have a hunting license without a FT permit. The permit is only to protect those that come from out of state and attend these FT's. 3. The officer was within his authority to ticket those individuals there participating without NC license. He just ticketed the judges to keep from ticketing all the participants, he was doing us a favor. 4. There were 2 NC residents ticketed. They were the 2 gunners who were shooting the quail at the upland test. The other 4 of us were "attending a field trial w/o a NC license". He said my ticket may be ammended at court to state that charge instead of taking wild birds w/o an appropiate license. 5. The man at the pawnshop denies that he said anything about the warden having prior knowledge of the event. 6. The warden says that his wife saw the hunt test signs and that's why he went out to check on the test. 7. The bottom line is that they stand behind the officer and that if I want to fight the charge I will have to showup at court and present my case to the judge. He is simply investigating the charge that the officer was rude and acted inappropiately at the sight.

[Fish]

2th, while I will have to agree with you that laws (the dumbest ever penned by human hand) were broken, though I am not sure what they were and I will have to take your word for that, I will say that I think you are oversimplifying this issue...respectfully. Yes, I suppose you can say that "laws were broken, citations were handed out and thats that". But still, even in the comfort of this oversimplified vacuum, there was no intent to take from the resource and there were no safety issues.

It occurs to me that this goes beyond the technicalities of the rules and the rights of the officer to enforce these rules. From time to time we, the public, are unfairly or improperly "handled" by those we entrust to protect us and in this case our resources. It will be interesting to see what happens with the citations and if the wardens are held accountable for their behavior.

[Fish]

Originally posted by Huntlabs:
The officer was within his authority to ticket those individuals there participating without NC license. He just ticketed the judges to keep from ticketing all the participants, he was doing us a favor.

[img]graemlins/lol.gif[/img] This just keeps getting better and better.

He did ya'll a favor. Ain't that a kneeslapper! I guess you better count your blessings and send in your checks.

[Santee116]

Thanks for the update HL.

Everything you posted is what I expected. I don't think anyone at that test, having the law well covered now, can deny that laws were broken. The issue I have, and many others at the test have, is that those FEW tickets didn't have to be written. The wardens SHOULD have talked to the club organizers FIRST THING IN THE MORNING. If his wife saw the signs and he knew the test was going to happen, and had an interest in making sure the laws were followed, he should have showed up at the beginning and started with the club to check for the proper permits. Upon dicovering that the club had no permits, he should have informed the club organizers that any out of state participants or judges that didn't have a NC license, needed to cease immediately and withdraw for the weekend, or obtain a license before proceeding. They really didn't need to run people down in the field and issue tickets to enforce the law. He should have told the club, get your out of state guys in compliance, I'll be back after lunch to make sure everything is within compliance.

2th - Have you ever been giving a warning for speeding? Same thing here should have happened, a warning issued. Most if not all of the participants were under the assumption that the trial had the proper permits and that by having a valid home state license would suffice if the proper permits were held by the host club. I really believe that if the club had known they needed the permit, and had chosen not to get one, they would have informed everyone that this event was not a permitted field trail and every out of state hunter would need to buy a license. Of course they didn't know, and everyone assumed they did follow the regs and had the proper paperwork to host the event. There in lies the problem. The warden should have interpreted this as, just about eveyone here believes they are in compliance of the law because they think the club has the proper paperwork. Instead they were writting tickets for laws that were broken unknowingly. Of course you could also say that it is the responsibility of the participant to make sure he is within the law and should have asked to see the permit that was required by the club to host the event, or if no permit, buy the valid NC hunting license.

Here is an example, although probably not valid but similar in law and intent on the law. Restuarants in SC can sell alcohol on sunday, provided they have the proper permits. You can't buy alcohol on sunday as an individual. You enter a restuarant, order a drink with your meal. An Alcohol beverage commission officer enters and sees you drinking a mixed drink. He issues you a ticket for buying liquor on sunday because the restaurant you are visting doesn't have a license to sell it on sunday. You were under the assumption that since they are selling it, they had a permit. You didn't ask to see the permit first so that you wouldn't break the law, you just sat down and bought a drink. Getting a ticket for this would be almost the same deal here IMO and the officers acted inappropriately and without sound judgement as to wether the participants were knowingly breaking the law or just misinformed.

I'm still in agreement with Fish. These wardens were "handling" the public here and there definitely was a better way to enforce the law.

[Briar Buster]

so I guess wildlife officers should be standing in walmart when you buy a box of shotgun shells with a check list of things that you need to do to be legal while hunting, yea thats it.. I mean walmart does sell shells and shells lead to hunting so it is his DUTY to be there and stop any violations before they occur, if not shame on him it his fault for you getting in trouble.

[tradorion]

Now if I had made that smart ass comment I would be crucified- but my thought was more along the lines of it would thus follow that it is my duty to go around to each and every farmer's field in the county (which i make an effort to do while looking for dove bait) and rather than document and set up for dove bait and make cases against my constituency, i should warn everybody they are about to hunt over bait and then make cases against those hearty souls who go forth...

But then i looked at it from the side of those in the contest and thought- NO- the difference from their point of view is they were trying/thought they were doing the right thing.

Which gives rise to the thought that a GW can't always read minds and know whether or not those he has caught breaking the law were doing so unintentionally or intentionally...

As noted before, some very well connected sporting groups WHO KNEW BETTER have hidden illegal activity under the guise of their good name.

The point here is NOT to imply that the NC club intentionally did something wrong but to point out that FACE VALUE is not what it always appears to be. And a GW has to call it as he sees it at the time.

My grandfather once noted that Perception is Reality and in this case different perceptions make for some interesting variations in reality.

[Fish]

Originally posted by tradorion:
Perception is Reality

Well, based on that conventional wisdom I guess that a whole lot of people percieve these gamewardens as disrespectul and a truckload of other descriptives that I won't get into. Further, their behavior should trouble you more than anyone as it taints the perceptions of sportsman about gamewardens as a whole...smart guy like you should certainly see that. So, I guess that if your Grandpapy's quote up there has any virtue then we should all just vote on our perceptions and we'll make the outcome a reality.

Wait, what am I saying? That would mean that those gamewardens would be held accountable for their actions. No, that just won't do. Sorry, my sarcasm is getting the better of me.

[Huntlabs]

Let's look at what happened and the way it could have been handled. 1. A young lady who is the club president made a mistake that the club has been making for many years. A no-fee permit was not obtained and according to the district captain can not be issued on the spot. 2. The GW came to the test and found that the upland test was being run without a permit and quail were being killed. Live birds were being killed and that's against the law. 3. When the GW checked the licences for the gunners and the person running the test, they found that the handler running the test was from SC. 3 tickets were given at that sight. 2 for taking quail out of season and one for taking wild birds without an appropriate license. The GW then made a decision to check the rest of the tests. He found 3 more judges w/o NC licenses. They were ticketed. The GW told someone that they would be back on Sunday and ticket anyone hunting on Sunday because that was against the law in NC. If that staement was only made about the upland test it was correct. They did not return on Sunday and claim that the club cancelled the Sunday test not them. Those are the facts. The district captain says the GW was within the authorty of his position to do everything that he did, and he could have ticketed all the handlers that were there and didn't have NC licenses, probably close to 50. What could he have done: 1. realizing that a mistake was made by one person, he could have educated the members of the club's Board of Directors as to the requirement for the no fee permit. He then could have issued warning citations to those in attendance or just the judges. He could have told all there that if they wanted to participate for the remainder of Saturday and Sunday they would have to buy a temp NC license because its legal to participate in a hunt test if you have a NC license even w/o a permit and on Sunday. The only test that would not have been able to continue for both days was the upland test because birds were being hunted/killed and you can't do that without a FT permit. The retriever tests for Sunday could have gone on as scheduled for anyone that purchased a hunting license. Unfortunately the local GW didn't handle it correctly and his supervisor and area LT allowed it to get out of hand. They all failed to sit down and explain the options and circumstances to the leadership of the club. They wrote 6 tickets and left. The local GW made another mistake by showing up at the place where peple were buying licenses. His presence there and friendship with the proprietor led many to the perception that something was not right. There were also comments made by the owner of the pawn shop that upset many people. I guess we will have to go to court to figure this one out.

[Huntlabs]

T, we have GW's down here that when they find a questionable field planted for doves they call the owners and discuss what has been done, ie corn was run thru a chipper and appeared to be cracked corn in the field. Another GW had been contacted and explained that the practice was legal as long as the corn never left the field or was not brought into the field. So, if the GW takes a little time to investigate before a ticket is given, sometimes a problem can be prevented and everyone benefits. Can you imagine what would have happened if the GW had shown up on the openning day and just written tickets to everyone for shooting over bait. 20 people plus kids. We appreciate our GW's doing these little things to prevent conflicts.