NC DNR Sucks

[Huntlabs]

T, you sound like you are a conservation officer in SC. I contacted the Colonel in charge of enforcement in NC and asked for the law/regulation that says that if a field trial is held without a permit, the only people who will be ticketed are the judges from out of state. He was amused by that and said that he would check into the regulations and field trial laws and get back to me. He agreed that it did not seem right that the only people who got tickets were those that came from out of state and volunteered to judge. Seemed like a nice guy and promised to let me know after he had time to check in to the whole thing. He did not have any law or regs to give me about this situation. Only the general rule that you should have a field trial permit to run a field trial.

[2thDoc]

i dont have a dog in this fight....but it seems to me that laws were broken. granted, it appears the wardens were a bit over-zealous in who they ticketed...

is it not true that the NC DNR is a private entity that is not owned by the state of NC? seems to me they are acting like forest acres cops and just trying to write as many tickets as possible to keep the lights on.

[Fish]

These hunt tests occur all over NC as well as the entire country every weekend. What is so different from this weekend and this event? This entire exercise was rediculously unnecessary and inappropriate. It is clearly a misuse of state resources and a misuse of the power and authority of a law enforcements officer's position.

I don't see the connection between the club not having a permit and the wholesale ticket writing for those from out of state. It is common knowledge that you cannot participate in a real hunt with or without a gun while handling a dog but this is a different situation completely.

I have it from a most reliable source that this particular gamewarden has long been regarded as a real problem. He fucks with everyone and assumes all parties are quilty.

[deadriver]

exactly!!

[Duckman#1]

#1- be pissed at the club as well as the officer... if they had done the right thing there would be no issue here (the right thing being defined as researching and explaining to the participants all needed permits licenses etc) just b/c someone "has done it that way for years" makes it no less of an offense.

They're not looking to blame the officer for the clubs mistake. The club has stepped up to try and make things right as best they can. They're blaming the officer for having a shitty additude and being disrespectful. And on top of that I'll put my pay check on it that the judges should'nt have gotten a ticket.

#3 contact the officer first and if no resolution can be reached

My next pay check will go for this not getting you diddle and if it does, someone still needs to know about his lack of respect toward the people that pay his salary(which is the biggest beef they have).Taxs, fees or Gov.funding it's still comes from the same place no matter how you want to word it.

[Mike E]

So, here is the North Carolina Administrative Code: 15A NCAC 10B .0114, condensed (look it up on line): Backwoods needed a permit. We have gone over that. Yes, they were wrong. Ignorance is no excuse and the club Officials could have been issued citations. If they had the permit, any state hunting license will sufice, as long as they have it in their pocession. Any game bird can be used, ducks, pheasants and quial. There is no stipulation for using game birds out of season, no stipulation demanding a North Carolina hunting license. The "Wildlife Officers" were well within their pervue to cited Backwoods however, taking it to the next level and citing judges, handlers and others and "demanding" that they purchase a NC hunting license went way over the top. They new about this event, and even stated that they saw it last year and did not have time to stop in and check, so they were looking for it this year. Now lets think about who showed up; the local GW and his supervisor! Not your typical situation. In addition, their Lt. was available, contacted and asked to show up. The economic impact to Mt. Pleasant, the extremely bad publicity for NC and its resources and the impact to the hunting community are what we need to hit them with. Who pays their salaries, wildlife management programs, non-game programs, and on and on? Hunters, fisher-people, and Pitman-Robertson taxable items. So, they ticket their constituency. A group that is quickly shrinking nationwide. AND, they acted smug about it.

[deadriver]

I agree 100% with Duck.

[BrownDog]

Tradorion –
I was hoping that you could clarify something that has come out of this.

We have an upcoming Hunt Test here in SC, after this weekends events I decided to call the SCDNR to make sure there was no potential to run into something like this here in SC. Even though I have been involved in HT for the past 15 years I decided it would be better safe than sorry. I was told that running a HT with ducks that had been euphonized was fine and no permit was necessary, however I was told that you could not use a live flyer that would be immediately shot. This is not very common in UKC test but is in AKC test. I spoke to the DNR Law Enforcement Office in Columbia. Can you conform that what they told me is correct?
I know this weekend was a bad situation but I hope we all will take the time to make sure we are not violating any local laws unknowingly.
Thanks for you help.

[BrownDog]

Tradorion –
I was hoping that you could clarify something that has come out of this.

We have an upcoming Hunt Test here in SC, after this weekends events I decided to call the SCDNR to make sure there was no potential to run into something like this here in SC. Even though I have been involved in HT for the past 15 years I decided it would be better safe than sorry. I was told that running a HT with ducks that had been euphonized was fine and no permit was necessary, however I was told that you could not use a live flyer that would be immediately shot. This is not very common in UKC test but is in AKC test. I spoke to the DNR Law Enforcement Office in Columbia. Can you conform that what they told me is correct?
I know this weekend was a bad situation but I hope we all will take the time to make sure we are not violating any local laws unknowingly.
Thanks for you help.

[Fish]

Heres a couple of what ifs.

Why weren't the people who were cited for violations not cited for hunting out of season? If they were quilty of some random game violation related to hunting then it would be logical to assume that everything they did was also out of season.

If what was going on last Saturday was indeed a violation why have these laws NOT been enforced in the past? If this is the case why do the officers still have their jobs as they obviously have been shirking their duties?

This whole thing is such complete bullshit.

[Sasha and Abby]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fish:
[QB] Heres a couple of what ifs.

Why weren't the people who were cited for violations not cited for hunting out of season? If they were quilty of some random game violation related to hunting then it would be logical to assume that everything they did was also out of season.[QB] [QUOTE]

Fish - you can hunt released birds until later in the season...

[Huntlabs]

BD, that's what SC DNR told us for our hunt test in Novemeber. We sent in the $5 and they sent it back.

[Fish]

[quote]Originally posted by Sasha and Abby:


Why weren't the people who were cited for violations not cited for hunting out of season? If they were quilty of some random game violation related to hunting then it would be logical to assume that everything they did was also out of season.[QB]

Fish - you can hunt released birds until later in the season...

No shit Sushi. Once again, your flare for the obvious has distinguished you from your peers. [img]graemlins/devil-flip.gif[/img]

One of the gentlemen has said that he was charged for "taking wild birds without an appropriate license" and to that I say if he was taking wild birds on March 5th he was taking them out of season. This is a clearly a misuse of authority.

[tradorion]

Fish- so let me get this straight- not catching a guy breaking the law and then catching him later constitutes me being a dumbass and "not doing my job"?? AMAZING.

On a side note- the officer may not have written ALL VIOLATIONS NOTED in an effort not the STACK cases on individuals... the issue of STACKING often gets discussed at meetings as officers try to decide where "citing appropriate violations" leaves off and "stacking" begins.

Duckman #1- can't speak for that fellow, but i have been in situations where after the fact i realized that there could have been a better way to work with the offender and we re-worked the situation... not often, but it has happened.

MikeE- you noted that the officer ticketed members of his shrinking constituency- sorry, BUT THAT IS WHAT WE DO- we write tickets to those people who violate the law... these hunters and fishermen and boaters who pay a portion of our salary through licenses, stamps, and taxes... simple fact, if MY CONSTITUENCY did not REGULARLY breake the law I would NOT have a job!!

T

[Huntlabs]

T, I agree with what you are saying about a GW's job. You do what you do because many people do break the law. This case is quite different. The club should have had a permit and everyone to include the club admits that was a mistake and could have been ticketed without question by anyone there. The problem comes when they did not have a FT permit and the GW made the decision to treat this as a hunt. He then ticketed only those judges that were nonresidents of the state of NC and did not have a NC license. The judges are invited guests of the club. They were simply evaluating the qualities of the dogs that ran the test. We, the judges, I was one, were ticketed for "taking wild game without an appropiate license". The NC reg defines taking as the process before, during or after an attempt to kill a wildlife resource. To my knowledge a toe clipped domestic mallard that was dispatched before the test began does not fit this definition of taking wild game. The GW then told me he was just doing his job protecting the Resources of the State of NC. When I asked him what resource of the State of NC was involved here he told me that he wasn't going to discuss that. These GW's, a local warden, his superviser, and his LT came to the hunt after they saw it was held there last year. They weren't trying to protect resources they were trying to end the hunt test. One of the handlers called a friend that was a GW on the eastern shore and he said the wardens could have written a no fee permit when they came out to the test and everything would have been able to continue for both days. Instead they made all nonresidents go get NC temp licenses for 50 to 70 dollars just to finish that day. Then they warned the club that they would be back on Sunday to ticket anyone there because hunting was not allowed on Sunday. These guys weren't trying to protect the resources of NC they were messing with a group of people that they for some reason had a bone to pick with. 250 people suffered because of this group of 3 men. I hope their bosses get emails and calls from all those that I have heard are calling. This event is on the HRC forum, the retrievertraining forum and several others and has raised the rath of many dedicated outdoorsmen. Again, it is not about the ticketing of the club for not having a permit, its about ticketing people for Wildlife violations that are in fact lies!!!and making people buy NC license to complete a test, and threatening to ticket people for hunting on Sunday that caused the entire test to be cancelled. A 4 hour trip to court and 4 hour return to be found not guilty is a pain in my butt, but I guess I'll have to go thru it. I've never had a violation and don't plan to start with a lie. It's just a shame that the wardens are not on trial for harassing 250 people.

[tradorion]

I see a number of issues in it-

if the only people charged were indeed non-residents then there could be a problem.

there is more to "protecting a resource" than many people view- interacting with clubs plays a role in it for the sake of the rules being applied across the board.

even in SC there are different GW's who handle situations in different manners- it has to do with experience, discretion, knowledge of the people involved, and a host of other issues... an offense that may earn one man a ticket could earn another a trip to jail and still another a warning... it all depends on the situation and that is a simple issue of human nature.

i truly wish you good luck in the resolution of the issue. As BrownDog noted this event has caused some questions to be asked that put future SC events in a safer position so it is not without its merits even if it left a bad taste in your mouth...

in closing, i see some of both sides based on what i have read here and elsewhere.... i can't armchair quarterback either side well- the "hunters" involved have said there were some areas they could have covered better- the GW's are not represented here but i am betting that by now they wish there had been some things they worked with a little better to... crossing T's, dotting I's, or researching the issue...

Keep us posted on the resolution please.

T

[Fish]

Originally posted by tradorion:
Fish- so let me get this straight- not catching a guy breaking the law and then catching him later constitutes me being a dumbass and "not doing my job"?? AMAZING.

No, thats not AMAZING. What is AMAZING is that I never said a fucking word in your self-important direction. Do you think that just because you are a warden, anytime anyone says anything about another warden it is also directed at you? If so, good luck with your career, your life and your blood pressure.

[Santee116]

/agree Fish..

Trad is playing a very defensive role here as a law enforcement officer when he hasn't heard a thing from any officers involved (I'm assuming based on his statement about not hearing the "other side of the story, meaning the GWs). He was not there, he didn't see what happened or how the officers reacted. He is merely using his experience as a law enforcement officer and what he would/might have done on this issue and ASSUMING that the officers in question acted in a similair manner. Total bullshit. What happened last weekend was completely out of line and unfounded by some yahoo wardens with a superiority complex. I was there and I speak from my own observations as a spectator only of what ACTUALLY happened, not hearsay bullshit.

Having said all that, I'll quote Trad here from THIS post...

Education is often much more valuable than a the money made on a case.

T

Very well said and this is what should have happened on saturday, not in court.

[Duckman#1]

Duckman #1- can't speak for that fellow, but i have been in situations where after the fact i realized that there could have been a better way to work with the offender and we re-worked the situation... not often, but it has happened.

That cool Trad. We/I are'nt trying to bash the DNR as a whole or pick everything you say apart. Thanks for your input! I know a little about where your coming from I've been a DLEO for 13 years and have spent a LOT of time working with some of these Berkeley county boys.

[Catdaddy]

Wonder why the officers didn't charge all 250 people there? Since the club left them in the terrible situation of hunting without a license. Having a sporting dog loose in the wild requires a license.

The wardens may have made the decision(which may have been the wrong one)in order to charge the least number of folks and allow the hunt to continue. Making the rest of the folks purchase a license was so they could continue hunting,imho.
Sunday was out all together without a permit......even with a license.......NO hunting on Sunday in NC.


In SC, a field trial permit costs $25.00(free in NC) and can not be issued on the spot. There are requirments that have to be met before a permit is issued. If you forget to get it ahead of time there is no way to get one in SC on Friday night,Saturday,or Sunday.

I saw where the club made a public apology and I'm sure the were terribly sorry for the error.
They put the wardens on the spot...........to do their job or walk away. Yes, they knew when they arrived that the club had not followed proper procedure.......and it seems they knew it the year before but GAVE them a break.


Now you have two sides.........theirs and mine........and I wasn't there.